Maybe DEMA should thumb their upcoming Dive Fest in Ft Lauderdale?

[ehoffman81]

How exactly is DEMA competing with it's members by holding an expo show? Also, how is this a "money grab"? Does DEMA not charge exhibitors or attendees at the annual trade shows? How is it any more of a money grab than the $5 footlong I just bought from Subway? I am very confused as to why some people in the industry resist the opportunity to show their products and services to the general public and get more people engaged in diving, especially in a region that has such a long diving window each year. As a consumer, I would love the opportunity to see the products available by all of the manufacturers, I can't get that opportunity at a dive shop. Yet when I look at the exhibitor list on the Blue Wild website (again, I have no intention of criticizing this show) the only manufacturers that stick out in my mind are Aqua Lung and Cressi. Yet, I hear that anyone and everyone in the industry is at the DEMA show. Since DEMA is successful at getting these brands to the trade show, why not a consumer show so the consumers can see the whole spectrum of everything for sale?

 

[cerich]

DEMA is a association that was created and is partially directly funded by the stakeholders of the Dive Industry and indirectly by the dive industry thru our participation at the annual DEMA show. That was done for the stated goals of the association, not to compete with other members of the dive industry, nor to promote activities outside diving as they are trying to do with the Lauderdale show. It is a money grab because the DEMA show is shrinking and DEMA as a organization seems more concerned with survival of itself than that of the dive industry. They got the venue for free, yet are charging almost twice as much per booth as the Blue Wild show in the same convention center. They are claiming cross marketing when IMHO they are actually increasing the possible paid attendee pool by expanding outside diving. this is a fundamental shift in what the association does and is IMHO not in keeping with their charter.

Don't confuse the DEMA Trade show with this one, and your comments regarding who shows up at DEMA versus the consumer shows is not quite correct anyhow. Virtually every major brand has skipped one or several DEMA Trade shows over the last few years. This consumer show I would be VERY surprised if you will see much representation among major brands if any.

The point to many of us is that DEMA as our dive industry association should be helping consumer shows, not competing with them, not being divisive but unifying. Helping all consumer shows "raise the bar" would reach hundreds of thousands of dive and potential dive consumers, doing a single show only a few 10's of thousands.

 

[ehoffman81]

It would seem to me that by opening up the show to vendors in other outdoor water related activities, more people would attend the show and DEMA may possibly be working to attract more people to the sport! In this supposed "money grab", would none of the funds raised by selling booths be used to advertise and promote the event? Again, this is not competing with anyone, it is allowing vendors such as yourself to showcase and sell your products to consumers and promoing the industry as a whole. Additionally, it allows you to further market your brands, through your retailers to people such as myself by collecting my information at the show.

For example, to be honest, I really haven't heard much about your brand at all! Several months ago, I purchased two regulators through Cave Adventurers in Marianna, FL and I saw your regulators for sale. Since I have never seen your brand in person and I was buying online, I purchased the Dive Rite regulators instead based on the recommendation from my dive buddy who has Dive Rite regs and never had anything go wrong with them. Wouldn't you like to have the opportunity to showcase your product, directly to the consumers and tell me why I should buy your regs as opposed to Dive Rite? Wouldn't you like to have the opportunity to talk directly to the consumer, and leave out the dealer who, in most cases, will be motivated to sell whatever brand he has in stock or gives him the highest profit margin?

Look, I'm not going to tell you how to run your business. I'm not an investor in your company, nor do I work for it. However, I can tell you that as a consumer that keeps companies like yours in business, it's very frustrating to hear about how almost every brand in the dive industry converges at the DEMA trade show every year to show off and sell the latest and greatest to the retailers, but then when I walk into a dive shop, they have very little selection and I am unable to see what is available. Go ahead and grind your axe with DEMA, ultimately it will be your loss. I truly hope that DEMA is able to put on a dive show that includes a large number of manufacturers and dive boat operators in the dive industry (not artists and speakers) that is open to consumers like me so I can see what is available in the industry and determine where to spend my money.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Speaking as a diver first and retailer second I can tell you that DEMA would be cutting the throats of many existing shows if it chose to do a consumer show. That is not their mission. Regional shows should be run by regional entities and get support and encouragement from DEMA. Not competition from them. I have done a regional show for the last 4 years that is steadily getting better, attracting more people, and gaining recognition for the good it does. This last show was one of my best in terms of business, response to my presentations, and interaction with divers and other businesses. What it did not receive was any real support from DEMA. They could have encouraged the membership in the region to participate and gain exposure. A consumer show in Ft Lauderdale does not really help me. What would help me is DEMA taking out ad space or running some type of promo encouraging divers to stay close to home and dive. Not fly to every corner of the earth.

There are a number of reasons you don't see much variety at LDS's. Number one is it's expensive to carry a big inventory. Two is some mfg actually discourage their dealers from offering it. They have such restrictive dealer agreements that a shop can't offer you a choice if they want to without losing their main line.

If you want to see more variety I'd respectfully advise you to take a road trip some weekend and visit as many of the shops around you in say a 100 mile radius. Easily done in a day or two. And check Dive Training, South East Dive News, and the shows and events listings here and go to some of the smaller regional shows. Support them and they will in turn support you. I will add some stuff later but have to leave for meeting with a customer now.

 

[koozemani]

It would seem to me that by opening up the show to vendors in other outdoor water related activities, more people would attend the show and DEMA may possibly be working to attract more people to the sport! In this supposed "money grab", would none of the funds raised by selling booths be used to advertise and promote the event? Again, this is not competing with anyone, it is allowing vendors such as yourself to showcase and sell your products to consumers and promoing the industry as a whole. Additionally, it allows you to further market your brands, through your retailers to people such as myself by collecting my information at the show.

For example, to be honest, I really haven't heard much about your brand at all! Several months ago, I purchased two regulators through Cave Adventurers in Marianna, FL and I saw your regulators for sale. Since I have never seen your brand in person and I was buying online, I purchased the Dive Rite regulators instead based on the recommendation from my dive buddy who has Dive Rite regs and never had anything go wrong with them. Wouldn't you like to have the opportunity to showcase your product, directly to the consumers and tell me why I should buy your regs as opposed to Dive Rite? Wouldn't you like to have the opportunity to talk directly to the consumer, and leave out the dealer who, in most cases, will be motivated to sell whatever brand he has in stock or gives him the highest profit margin?

Look, I'm not going to tell you how to run your business. I'm not an investor in your company, nor do I work for it. However, I can tell you that as a consumer that keeps companies like yours in business, it's very frustrating to hear about how almost every brand in the dive industry converges at the DEMA trade show every year to show off and sell the latest and greatest to the retailers, but then when I walk into a dive shop, they have very little selection and I am unable to see what is available. Go ahead and grind your axe with DEMA, ultimately it will be your loss. I truly hope that DEMA is able to put on a dive show that includes a large number of manufacturers and dive boat operators in the dive industry (not artists and speakers) that is open to consumers like me so I can see what is available in the industry and determine where to spend my money.

From what I've seen in this thread so far, and what I think you have wrong, is that those that attend Dema's TRADE show may not or are inclined to attend their CONSUMER show that takes place in what other posters semm to feel is a competing time slot with an existing and established consumer show. You've named two brands that are attending the competing event, but have not named any attending the DEMA show. I believe in an earlier post, there was a link to a publication that quoted a major brand as saying that they would not be attending DEMA's consumer show.

 

[ehoffman81]

Jim, I appreciate and respect your opinion. However, with all due respect, the concept of driving around for a weekend going from dive shop to dive shop (each which carries very little inventory as you said) is very unappealing. I would much rather drive to Ft. Lauderdale (a great town to spend a weekend) and see all the manufacturers and all of their products, up close, in person, in one fell swoop. Additionally, if marketed appropriately, a weekend in Ft. Lauderdale in April would be much more appealing to folks around the country than going to Chicago in February or Jersey in March. If people who fly to the show don't buy products at the show (which is likely due to airline baggage fees) the manufacturers will have the opportunity to put them in touch with their local retailers.

 

[cerich]

I really like some of your points, I don't want to miss any of them so what I am gonna do is write in red immediately following your comments.

It would seem to me that by opening up the show to vendors in other outdoor water related activities, more people would attend the show and DEMA may possibly be working to attract more people to the sport! I agree and feel that the existing consumer shows should consider this idea. This is something that DEMA should work with the consumer shows to assist with, not compete with. In this supposed "money grab", would none of the funds raised by selling booths be used to advertise and promote the event? I am certain it would, operating the show requires some money, even when the hall is free.However the "money grab" refers to the big picture. obviously Again, this is not competing with anyone, it is allowing vendors such as yourself to showcase and sell your products to consumers and promoing the industry as a whole. Additionally, it allows you to further market your brands, through your retailers to people such as myself by collecting my information at the show. You are missing the point, I ALREADY participate at consumer shows all over the place. This year EDGE/HOG participated at shows in New jersey, Long Beach, Tacoma, Santa Clara, Singapore, Toronto, Spain, rebreather Forum 3 in orlando and the NSS-CDS worshop and supported a dealer in their booth in Chicago. By the end of this year I will also be showing in Atlanta and at the DEMA show in Las Vegas most likely. I don't mind showing the brand at all. The concerns aren't about EDGE or any single brand, or retailer. It's about what DEMA's role as the dive industrys marketing association is. I (and others) feel that they are operating outside their mandate and indeed in a unethical manner.

For example, to be honest, I really haven't heard much about your brand at all! Several months ago, I purchased two regulators through Cave Adventurers in Marianna, FL and I saw your regulators for sale. Since I have never seen your brand in person and I was buying online, I purchased the Dive Rite regulators instead based on the recommendation from my dive buddy who has Dive Rite regs and never had anything go wrong with them. Wouldn't you like to have the opportunity to showcase your product, directly to the consumers and tell me why I should buy your regs as opposed to Dive Rite? Wouldn't you like to have the opportunity to talk directly to the consumer, and leave out the dealer who, in most cases, will be motivated to sell whatever brand he has in stock or gives him the highest profit margin? Well, Dive Rite has been around longer, they have a larger dealer base and more brand recognition. that really isn't a surprise to me. The good news is that I can't keep up with the current demand...ask any of my dealers. However if you read my statements above you will see I was at quite a few venues where I get to speak direct to the consumer. in fact we are on one venue that actually makes them all look tiny...Scubaboard. In short, I don't need nor want DEMA to provide me those venues, they exist and I am using them. What I want is for DEMA to step up to the job they are there to do. Build the industry, not selectively compete with segments of it.

Look, I'm not going to tell you how to run your business. Good I'm not an investor in your company, nor do I work for it. However, I can tell you that as a consumer that keeps companies like yours in business, it's very frustrating to hear about how almost every brand in the dive industry converges at the DEMA trade show every year to show off and sell the latest and greatest to the retailers, but then when I walk into a dive shop, they have very little selection and I am unable to see what is available. I AGREE 100%. lack of selection is a major issue for the dive industry. In fact selection drives sales to the Internet more often than price. The DEMA consumer show or any other consumer show 9and there are lots)won't change that one darn bit. If the consumer sees a product at a consumer show they want and the local dealer does not have on hand, they are buying it online. Dema running a consumer show isn't changing that. That is a detriment to the Local Dive Store. of course that is a chicken and egg argument, which is the cause?.Go ahead and grind your axe with DEMA, ultimately it will be your loss.I am not quite sure what you mean by that. Ultimately when DEMA is gone it will harm me or something else? I truly hope that DEMA is able to put on a dive show that includes a large number of manufacturers and dive boat operators in the dive industry (not artists and speakers) that is open to consumers like me so I can see what is available in the industry and determine where to spend my money.

I personally hope that DEMA pulls out of this and instead starts to believe that they can better meet their mandate by working with the dive industry, not against it. I appreciate the time you are taking to talk about this issue, it matters. It is important and in fact your perceptions are natural. In fact, when I read the " WTF, why a consumer show" brochure put out by DEMA I was quite impressed by some of the very creative and excellent ideas they presented. The problem isn't their ideas. The problem is that DEMA is not supposed to be competing with the dive industry, they aren't supposed to be running consumer trade shows, they aren't supposed to " DEMA is working directly with manufacturers so they can help create sales-friendly event policies that encourage retailers from around the world and their customers to exhibit and attend.",not only should DEMA not take that role but it skirts a real gray area.

I have taken the time to address your points, you have been insisting that a consumer show is a good idea while ignoring that there exists a whole bunch of them. Honestly, I suspect you have a dog in the fight. It so or not, how about steping out from behind the anonymity so the dialogue isn't a complete waste of time and effort?

Yours in diving,

Chris

 

[SC_Hoaty]

Chris - great points in your reply to ehoffman81 above. I am NOT a dive industry professional - simply a vacation diver who spends too much free time on ScubaBoard. I have worked in other industries that have trade-only events. Friends who are aware of these events are always angling for way to attend as a "fake" trade person. There is a great appeal to being exposed to the broad base of supply, and learning about the goods that do not normally show up in the local marketplace.

The internet now allows an informed consumer to acquire products that are not available locally.

I have also been involved with organizing and running a conference and trade show for a small, niche area. We had about 400 attendees from around the world. As conference organizers, we made money on exhibitor fees, attendee fee (both single day and multi-day), publication sales, banquet tickets, etc. There is money to be made in hosting a successful event, and money to be lost if the event underperforms.

I may be being a bit naive, but I do not see ehoffman81 as a "closet insider" - simply an avid diver who wants a Florida version of BTS.

Thanks for all the great discussion on this!

 

[ehoffman81]

Chris, thank you for your responses. As far as who I am, my name is Evan Hoffman and the only dog that I have in this fight is that spend a good deal of money each year on scuba diving as my hobby. I have been diving since 2000, my highest certification is PADI Rescue Diver and I have several other certifications through SSI and NACD as well. As far as my line of work goes, I am a CPA, but now that busy season is over, I'm currently looking for a business to invest in, but nothing in the dive industry and I have never been empolyed by or invested in the dive industry. I have several friends that are dive instructors and that attend the DEMA trade show every other year when it swings through Orlando and I get my feedback on the shows from them. I listen to the Scubaradio podcasts every now and then which is how I first heard about this whole controversy. I am Facebook friends with Greg the DM and a few of the mermaids, but I have never met him in person, and unfortunately none of the mermaids either. So that's who I am, full disclosure....now I can run for office

I think we both agree that I have a reasonable gripe with the dive industry, and that is that there are a lot of great products out there to be sold. Each year, I hear about them when my friends attend the DEMA trade show, yet when I go to the local dive shops, with the exception of mask de-fog seldom do they have anything that I am looking for in stock. In many cases, what dive consumers are looking for costs a lot of money, for example the Dive Rite cannister light that I bought prior to my intro to cave class. However, none of the shops that I went to had them in stock, and I'd much rather see the product in person before spending $700 on it. Unfortunately, seeing it wasn't an option, so I just ordered it. I would much rather have the opportunity to see the products in person from all of the manufacturers (Dive Rite, Light Monkey, Etc) which is what the retailers have the option of doing at the DEMA trade show, which from what I heard had a ton of light manufacturers at their last show. If manufacturers are not going to allow their retailers to keep items in stock, then hold a large show for consumers so we can see what is available. I hear about all this great stuff, but then I can't find any of the products to look at before spending the money.

The other controversy here is that planned DEMA consumer show would conflict with the Blue Wild show in February. Yes I am aware that this is a local show, however if I look at the most recent exhibitor list they have online, the list of manufacturers doesn't compare with the list of manufacturers that I have seen on exhibitor lists for past DEMA shows. The bottom line is that I, as a consumer (and I think I speak for a lot of divers when I say this), would like the opportunity to see all of the products that are available in the industry so I can make an educated decision on the products that I buy. In addition, I would love the opportunity to meet and easily speak with a number of dive operators and possibly book a trip or two while I am there. Retailers have this opportunity with the large number of exhibitors at the DEMA show, all I am asking for is the same opportunity to do so as a consumer, just like the consumers at the Miami Boat Show. (I never thought giving people business would be so tough!) The organizer of the Blue Wild show left a very well written and humble post on this string a little ways back stating that she feels she has a very strong following for her show to keep it going and that her show differentiates from the traditional dive shows with speakers, artists etc. As I said before, as a consumer, I want to see what is available to buy from as many brands as possible and these local shows, at least the current one in Ft. Laud seems to have limited manufacturers attending when compared to the DEMA trade show. (By the way, I do welcome any response from the organizer of the Blue Wild. If there are indeed more manufacturers attending next year, or if you want to clarify anything I have stated, please do so as I in no way want to mis-represent your event.) In listening to the SR podcast the other week, it sounds like the option of opening the last day of the DEMA trade show was floated across the table, yet shot down. Opening the show to the public on Sunday may be a much more efficient way to handle this than having a seperate show, just tell everyone to put away their materials with the MAPS, etc, and let the consumers see what is available.

As far as the gripe with DEMA goes, I can't attest to that as I am in no way shape or form involved with that organization. However rather than look at the possible and apparent threats that this show poses for manufacturers, I think manufacturers need to look at the opportunities. So what if they open the show to industries other than diving? If the show is open to other water sports, such as fishing, surfing and waterskiing, such a show could be used as an opportunity for companies in the dive industry to attract non-divers attending the show to the sport of diving. There's been a lot of comments tossed around on here about what the objectives of DEMA are supposed to be, but none of them seem to be consistent with the Mission Statement, Objective, Promise and Goals that DEMA posts on their site. Per it's promise:

DEMA delivers membership value by promoting an ongoing, powerful, consumer-focused image of scuba diving and providing information and tools that assist its members’ focus on reaching, communicating to and affecting the consumer.

As a consumer I'll tell you this....walking into a dive shop and hearing, "Uhhhhh, we don't have that in stock, they won't let us keep it in stock. I can order it and have it in 3 - 5 weeks," is not consumer focused! Having a consumer dive show, and allowing the consumers to see the products of all of the DEMA member brands, is consumer focused.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I would like to give you guys my business but in order to do so, I want to see what is out there so I can see what I'm buying. Chris, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I hope DEMA puts on a show for the consumer that is just as large, if not larger than the annual trade show.....and if you guys cave in and decide to show up, you're gonna owe me a beer!

Best,
Evan

 

[cerich]

Other than sharing a name (Evan is my middle name) I find we actually share some of the same thoughts as well.

I was a proponent of having the last day of the dema trade show open to the public. It seems to be a great ROI and easy enough to put away the wholesale info for a day. It kept being presented by DEMA to the membership as allowing the public in during the trade show...and of course people didn't want that. i couldn't understand until DEMA announced their consumer show why they kept on presenting it that way...now it's obvious, they didn't want to compete with their own plans. duh...

I know half the fun of any big industry show is people get a glimpse of the "magic" behind the curtain and IMHO having a consumer day at the end of DEMA would be good and healthy for the industry.

How does that differ from a strict consumer show? Well first of all the trade show is the BIG deal, historically that is where all the stops are pulled out. Plus, the trade show ending with a consumer day would really only draw the passionate scuba fan base, not so much the new diver.

I honestly believe the best investment for DEMA and the industry is that we all do as much as we can to support and grow consumer shows. It is as you have pointed out, a VITAL opportunity for all of us to actually reach each other in a meaningful manner. One show isn't enough, we aren't like Germany where people will all drive to the Boot show. Here we need to face geographic and economic reality and offer venues within reach of all divers, local and travel orientated and the simply "scuba curious" That is where strong consumer shows will make a difference.

In your quote above from DEMA "scuba diving and providing information and tools that assist its members’ focus on reaching, communicating to and affecting the consumer", bolded a couple things in there , things that I feel are VERY important.

This consumer show they are planning, it just isn't well executed for the dive industry. It is too late in the year (BLUE Wild is perfect) for a S FLA show, the aspect of competing with BLUE WILD, the playing around and trying to influence manufs policies, the connection between a DEMA BOD member at the time this idea came up and the Ft Lauderdale convention center, the dive industries marketing association now promoting other water based sports and more. It all is suspect.

Look, heres the deal. I appreciate your point. I will be at BLUE WILD, your admission is on me to attend. Trust me, if a diving focused show is what you crave, BLUE WILD will better meet your needs than the dema run show will.

Best,

Chris

Chris, thank you for your responses. As far as who I am, my name is Evan Hoffman and the only dog that I have in this fight is that spend a good deal of money each year on scuba diving as my hobby. I have been diving since 2000, my highest certification is PADI Rescue Diver and I have several other certifications through SSI and NACD as well. As far as my line of work goes, I am a CPA, but now that busy season is over, I'm currently looking for a business to invest in, but nothing in the dive industry and I have never been empolyed by or invested in the dive industry. I have several friends that are dive instructors and that attend the DEMA trade show every other year when it swings through Orlando and I get my feedback on the shows from them. I listen to the Scubaradio podcasts every now and then which is how I first heard about this whole controversy. I am Facebook friends with Greg the DM and a few of the mermaids, but I have never met him in person, and unfortunately none of the mermaids either. So that's who I am, full disclosure....now I can run for office

I think we both agree that I have a reasonable gripe with the dive industry, and that is that there are a lot of great products out there to be sold. Each year, I hear about them when my friends attend the DEMA trade show, yet when I go to the local dive shops, with the exception of mask de-fog seldom do they have anything that I am looking for in stock. In many cases, what dive consumers are looking for costs a lot of money, for example the Dive Rite cannister light that I bought prior to my intro to cave class. However, none of the shops that I went to had them in stock, and I'd much rather see the product in person before spending $700 on it. Unfortunately, seeing it wasn't an option, so I just ordered it. I would much rather have the opportunity to see the products in person from all of the manufacturers (Dive Rite, Light Monkey, Etc) which is what the retailers have the option of doing at the DEMA trade show, which from what I heard had a ton of light manufacturers at their last show. If manufacturers are not going to allow their retailers to keep items in stock, then hold a large show for consumers so we can see what is available. I hear about all this great stuff, but then I can't find any of the products to look at before spending the money.

The other controversy here is that planned DEMA consumer show would conflict with the Blue Wild show in February. Yes I am aware that this is a local show, however if I look at the most recent exhibitor list they have online, the list of manufacturers doesn't compare with the list of manufacturers that I have seen on exhibitor lists for past DEMA shows. The bottom line is that I, as a consumer (and I think I speak for a lot of divers when I say this), would like the opportunity to see all of the products that are available in the industry so I can make an educated decision on the products that I buy. In addition, I would love the opportunity to meet and easily speak with a number of dive operators and possibly book a trip or two while I am there. Retailers have this opportunity with the large number of exhibitors at the DEMA show, all I am asking for is the same opportunity to do so as a consumer, just like the consumers at the Miami Boat Show. (I never thought giving people business would be so tough!) The organizer of the Blue Wild show left a very well written and humble post on this string a little ways back stating that she feels she has a very strong following for her show to keep it going and that her show differentiates from the traditional dive shows with speakers, artists etc. As I said before, as a consumer, I want to see what is available to buy from as many brands as possible and these local shows, at least the current one in Ft. Laud seems to have limited manufacturers attending when compared to the DEMA trade show. (By the way, I do welcome any response from the organizer of the Blue Wild. If there are indeed more manufacturers attending next year, or if you want to clarify anything I have stated, please do so as I in no way want to mis-represent your event.) In listening to the SR podcast the other week, it sounds like the option of opening the last day of the DEMA trade show was floated across the table, yet shot down. Opening the show to the public on Sunday may be a much more efficient way to handle this than having a seperate show, just tell everyone to put away their materials with the MAPS, etc, and let the consumers see what is available.

As far as the gripe with DEMA goes, I can't attest to that as I am in no way shape or form involved with that organization. However rather than look at the possible and apparent threats that this show poses for manufacturers, I think manufacturers need to look at the opportunities. So what if they open the show to industries other than diving? If the show is open to other water sports, such as fishing, surfing and waterskiing, such a show could be used as an opportunity for companies in the dive industry to attract non-divers attending the show to the sport of diving. There's been a lot of comments tossed around on here about what the objectives of DEMA are supposed to be, but none of them seem to be consistent with the Mission Statement, Objective, Promise and Goals that DEMA posts on their site. Per it's promise:

DEMA delivers membership value by promoting an ongoing, powerful, consumer-focused image of scuba diving and providing information and tools that assist its members’ focus on reaching, communicating to and affecting the consumer.

As a consumer I'll tell you this....walking into a dive shop and hearing, "Uhhhhh, we don't have that in stock, they won't let us keep it in stock. I can order it and have it in 3 - 5 weeks," is not consumer focused! Having a consumer dive show, and allowing the consumers to see the products of all of the DEMA member brands, is consumer focused.

Anyway, that's my two cents. I would like to give you guys my business but in order to do so, I want to see what is out there so I can see what I'm buying. Chris, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I hope DEMA puts on a show for the consumer that is just as large, if not larger than the annual trade show.....and if you guys cave in and decide to show up, you're gonna owe me a beer!

Best,
Evan

---------- Post added ----------

. I listen to the Scubaradio podcasts every now and then which is how I first heard about this whole controversy. I am Facebook friends with Greg the DM and a few of the mermaids, but I have never met him in person, and unfortunately none of the mermaids either.

IMHO , upon reflection the single most interesting thing from your thread!

You would have NEVER heard of the show if not for the controversy about it!. WOW, so here we are 10 months out and if us "trouble makers, malcontents and petty people" weren't speaking up you wouldn't have know about it. yet somehow they were going to do a better job than the other consumer shows.... ya think?