liability w/ rank

[scubaspider]

I'm currently continuing my dive education to AOW, dive master, and/or Dive Con. Now I dont think I'll get to these levels by the summer of 2005. This date is significant because i'm going on a Focus trip to Austrialia w/ recently certified divers (like just completed their training before we leave) when we go. I'm concerned that by this time I'll be at least AOW. I'm concerned that since it will be on paper that I have this certification and will be the most certifed of the group, will/could I be held responsible for the "younger" divers from them, SSI, or anyone else?

 

[ID diver]

Unless you are a dive professional (Dive Master/Dive Con or higher) or group leader you have no responsibility to the group as whole. Even as a dive professional your responsibility may be limited depending on what role you are playing (i.e. teaching class or on a trip with you and your buddy). Of course you always have a responsibility to your buddy.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[BigJetDriver]

I'm currently continuing my dive education to AOW, dive master, and/or Dive Con. Now I dont think I'll get to these levels by the summer of 2005. This date is significant because i'm going on a Focus trip to Austrialia w/ recently certified divers (like just completed their training before we leave) when we go. I'm concerned that by this time I'll be at least AOW. I'm concerned that since it will be on paper that I have this certification and will be the most certifed of the group, will/could I be held responsible for the "younger" divers from them, SSI, or anyone else?

If this is not a trip that you have organized, or diving that you have put together, then you are just another diver in the group, and no liability should attach. For example, although I am an Instructor Trainer with IANTD, if I am going on a group dive as one of the rank and file, there is no professional relationship and therefore no liability other than that which would attach if I were to do something injurious to another.

If you are leading the dives as a DiveCon, then some liability may attach if there is a problem. That is what professional liablity insurance is for.

BJD :anakinpod

 

[AzAtty]

Talk to your friendly neighborhood lawyer about this. Questions of liability rarely have simple answers. It took me half a minute to come up with theories other than "certification level" upon which you could be held liable if something goes wrong--in two different countries.

I am not licensed in Pennsylvania or Australia, so I can't give you an opinion on how to protect yourself. However, if a client approached me about something like this, I'd be drafting documents to protect him after consulting with him. I'd also be calling an Australian attorney about liability there, and would get a set drafted that complied with any Australian governing laws.

 

[mcrae]

As has been mentioned above, if you are not coodinating the trip or acting as a Dive Professional I would personally not worry about it.

The Australian Government has very strict controls on their domestic dive operations steming from the fact that they have so many tourists going there to dive. It is likley one of the safest places to dive. Also one of the nicest.

If we had to consult a lawyer everytime we went into another jurisdication we probably wouldn't go.

Have fun and get all the training and experience that you can first, makes the diving experience there more enjoyable.
Gary

 

[NEWreckDiver]

I'm currently continuing my dive education to AOW, dive master, and/or Dive Con. Now I dont think I'll get to these levels by the summer of 2005. This date is significant because i'm going on a Focus trip to Austrialia w/ recently certified divers (like just completed their training before we leave) when we go. I'm concerned that by this time I'll be at least AOW. I'm concerned that since it will be on paper that I have this certification and will be the most certifed of the group, will/could I be held responsible for the "younger" divers from them, SSI, or anyone else?

If you are not a DM then you cannot be held liable for anything. If you are not a diver that holds a professional certification you should not be acting as a leader anyway. So I wouldn’t presume to be one. You cannot be held liable just because you have the highest non-professional certification on the boat/trip.

If by the time you take this trip, you reach your DM status, then you should have liability coverage for yourself in case it is needed. I am not sure about the laws in Australia, but I wouldn’t take the chance.

I care my own liability insurance just in case. I do assist in training dive and DM on charter boats.

Good luck and have a safe trip

 

[MikeFerrara]

In this country you can always be held liable for not ascting as a "reasonably prudent person" would act if it results in damages to another.

 

[DivePartner1]

In this country you can always be held liable for not ascting as a "reasonably prudent person" would act if it results in damages to another.

. . . IF you had a duty to perform the task AND the person who suffered damage relied on your assistance or expertise AND that reliance was reasonable. Of course, you can always be sued there as here, even if these elements are satisfied and the claim lacks merit. You just have a less expensive ordeal getting out.

I'm with McRae on this. The realistic risk of a claim is primarily born by the dive professional sponsoring or leading the risk.

One cannot exclude the possibilty that anyone might be sued for anything, and it is always possible that a dive buddy may be sued for injuries to a buddy (it doesn't matter that you did nothing. That is an issue for trial or motions practice).

I frankly don't worry about this much. With a DM who accompanies the group or the professionals or club sponsorig a dive, reliance is may be clearly 'reasonable' in the eyes of law--the pro has a greater duty than the rec diver, especially one with no professional certification. I don't practice dive law in Australia but I've been involved in defending professional claims there and believe they have essentially the same test for a duty, breach of duty and consequences applies as in the US and Canada.

My advice: Getting sued is like get hit by lightning--it can happen regardless of precautions or plans--but you're more likely to get sued for driving than diving. You might manage both risks the same way: with a rider of $1M or two on your insurance. You're not likely to be the most attractive deep pocket, but at least it'll fund the legal fees of your defense.

And always practice safe diving and, if possible, vet our dive buddies in advance and avoid those that seem like trouble (you'll usually know).

 

[AzAtty]

I got the impression that scubaspider has more to do with the outing than merely attending, and my previous comments were directed to that issue. Perhaps that's overreading. If it's an issue of mere attendance and nothing more, then buddy liability is the more likely issue. If one is planning the outing and actively involved in other aspects beyond participation, the analysis differs.

 

[scubaspider]

well, I am going as a member of the group, yet, my professor (another well experienced diver beyond me actually but he doesnt have it documented. Meaning he deep dives along with other specialities, but doesnt have the cert. on paper. So, he is still seen as an OW. when he could actually be classified as AOW or more.) mentioned to me about taking half the group and going around the reef so then he wouldnt have a large group and we could break it up, since the 2 of us would be the only experienced divers. Now he didnt mention anything about a DM w/ us while diving so, i'm not sure about the specifics, but if we are the only 2 expericed then could I be held responsible if something would happen in the water since I would be leading a group?