Legally Obligated/Responsible?

[PvtStash]

Quote:
Originally Posted by waterpirate
Hi Jim, my problem with all the agency's and lds is implied responsibility. if you are a dm candidate then you better represent padi or guess what? you may stay a candidate. I have said here before that even getting a rescue diver cert comes with an expectation from people below that cert, that they are safe diving with you, because you have been trained to rescue them. It is a slippery slope when you climb the ladder, people and big brother will certainly be watching you.
Eric



I read this in another thread and was hoping it wasnt true, can someone confirm or deny?

If I understand this correctly it means that if I take a Rescue cert. class I am Legally Responsible/Obligated to whomever I Dive with thereafter? or if I should become a DM I would be Legally Responsible for any I dove with with Less cert. than myself?

I understand that IF I was WORKING as a DM or Instructor, getting paid for working with students THEN I could understand the Liability..., but thats not what I got from the original post... what I got was that even if NOT working as staff you were Legally Responsible for those that dove with you if you had a Rescue cert. (or DM cert.) and they Didnt.

I hope that this is not the case as it would DISSUADE me from trying to be a Safer Diver, as I would certainly NOT take a rescue class if it meant I would thereafter be Legally Liable for any lesser skilled I happen to dive with.

 

[oly5050user]

Quote:
Originally Posted by waterpirate
Hi Jim, my problem with all the agency's and lds is implied responsibility. if you are a dm candidate then you better represent padi or guess what? you may stay a candidate. I have said here before that even getting a rescue diver cert comes with an expectation from people below that cert, that they are safe diving with you, because you have been trained to rescue them. It is a slippery slope when you climb the ladder, people and big brother will certainly be watching you.
Eric



I read this in another thread and was hoping it wasnt true, can someone confirm or deny?

If I understand this correctly it means that if I take a Rescue cert. class I am Legally Responsible/Obligated to whomever I Dive with thereafter? or if I should become a DM I would be Legally Responsible for any I dove with with Less cert. than myself?

I understand that IF I was WORKING as a DM or Instructor, getting paid for working with students THEN I could understand the Liability..., but thats not what I got from the original post... what I got was that even if NOT working as staff you were Legally Responsible for those that dove with you if you had a Rescue cert. (or DM cert.) and they Didnt.

I hope that this is not the case as it would DISSUADE me from trying to be a Safer Diver, as I would certainly NOT take a rescue class if it meant I would thereafter be Legally Liable for any lesser skilled I happen to dive with.

first thing to realize is anyone can be sued by anybody at any time.At rescue level people have to realize that yes you are taught how to perform a rescue of another diver,BUT, the most effective way of being a "rescue" diver is awareness of the environment or lets call it situational awareness.Haveing to PREVENT to do a rescue is a much bigger part of the course as well as resucueing yourself /preventing having to get yourself rescued.
Working as a dm or instr puts you in a situation that if an incident occurs the lawyers will be looking at you for any thing that they can get(you are the one with insurance).Hopefully your liability insurance is good.
As to if you are "legally" responsible my answer as I understand it is as follows.Diving with someone for pleasure recreationaly whether you are at a "pro " level or entry level certification does not release you from any liabilities/responsibilities if the industry acceptable standard pratices are not followed.Example can be going into overhead environments with untrained people,going beyond what is considered a safe depth for the environment and or skill/training of the people involved.This is one reason that I do not accept "insta buddies " to dive with on a charter.It took a while and was costly to get and maintain my ratings and to take someone diving that I do not know and accept the responsibility without being compensated for it hits me as wrong.After all I pay my way on the boat as everyone else and to dive with someone who may be a problem(may not be a safety problem but someone who detracts from MY dive that I paid for).If a crew member wants me to take someone on a dive I politely tell them that as a professional I am diving for my enjoyment and if I take someone that is not a part of my team I must be compensated-usually the boat fee plus $75.-$100. for my time.That usually gets me a knowing smile from them and they ask some one else.Take the rescue class for it would not make you any more liable than what you are already as a ow or adv certified diver.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

I am no lawyer, but a similar situation exists in medicine. Physicians are shielded by what are called "good samaritan" laws which give them immunity if they stop to help someone in distress who is not their official patient.

You are correct in distinguishing someone who pays you for your services and someone who is not your "client" or customer. A person who pays you based upon your credentials expects a certain level of competence.

Good samaritan laws are designed to encourage professionals to get involved with emergencies that unfold before their eyes. Without such laws, a doctor would think twice about helping a man choking on a hot dog at a ballgame, or assisting a pedestrian struck by a car.

I suspect, but do not know for sure, that similar protection applies to dive professionals who are not officially hired by other divers yet may be called upon in an emergency. It's an interesting issue and I'm sure there is a definitive answer, but the situation legally may vary from state to state and country to country.

 

[tstormdiver]

As I took my Dive Con course this year, one way discussed, to avoid such entanglements is to present yourself as an advanced diver. If you are on a charter with complete strangers, then you may be able to get away with just presenting your self as an Advanced Open Water diver. As long as no one is the wiser, you should be OK. However, if it is known that you are a rescue diver or professional diver (DM/ Inst.) then it is basically implied that you operate at that level. Like was stated above anyone can sue anybody, at anytime, for anything. So even going as only known as an Advanced diver, you can still be open to a law suit. Now, that is not saying because they are diving with a rescue or professional level diver, that it negates your buddy form the personal responsibility of being a safe diver. If you are diving with someone & they decide to not follow any of the basic safety guidelines, because you will be there to get their "can out of the fire", then it can become a grey area, as you can not force someone to be or act safely. Personally, if I dove with someone who decided that they were not going to follow the rules because they felt like they should be in safe hands, because they were diving with a professional you can bet this: 1. the dive would be called & over pretty quick, 2. there would be no second dive & 3. there would be a very serious conversation about the behavior involved including, if need be, some "colorful" & not so politically correct language used.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Cases like that death in Australia worry me. The is suspected of murdering his wife who was a new diver on a dive. The scary part is that people, including the so-called diving experts, seem to want to point to the fact that he was a "certified rescue diver" and what he should have done or should have been able to do.

That's a complete misunderstanding of most rescue training. In a PADI rescue class students get to see and try some skills but there are no performance requirements that force those skills to be "mastered". Many (probably most?) rescue divers are just novice divers. Many (most?) have never experienced much of a problem on a dive, they may, in fact, be fairly new divers and may or may not be able to actually perform in a real emergency.

A DM isn't much better off but they, at least, should know something about the potential legal liability and may have insurance.

Looking back on some of the things I saw, especially as a new DM, I have to think that doing that stuff for little or no pay (as is common) is just plain stupid.

 

[PhilEllis]

As I took my Dive Con course this year, one way discussed, to avoid such entanglements is to present yourself as an advanced diver. If you are on a charter with complete strangers, then you may be able to get away with just presenting your self as an Advanced Open Water diver. As long as no one is the wiser, you should be OK. However, if it is known that you are a rescue diver or professional diver (DM/ Inst.) then it is basically implied that you operate at that level. Like was stated above anyone can sue anybody, at anytime, for anything. So even going as only known as an Advanced diver, you can still be open to a law suit. Now, that is not saying because they are diving with a rescue or professional level diver, that it negates your buddy form the personal responsibility of being a safe diver. If you are diving with someone & they decide to not follow any of the basic safety guidelines, because you will be there to get their "can out of the fire", then it can become a grey area, as you can not force someone to be or act safely. Personally, if I dove with someone who decided that they were not going to follow the rules because they felt like they should be in safe hands, because they were diving with a professional you can bet this: 1. the dive would be called & over pretty quick, 2. there would be no second dive & 3. there would be a very serious conversation about the behavior involved including, if need be, some "colorful" & not so politically correct language used.

Hi Tammy. Advice like that is typically done by individuals who know little about the law and about how an eventual law suit would develop. Regardless of your scuba rating, it you are intimately involved in an incident, you are subject to being named in a law suit. It doesn't matter what you present yourself as, you skills and training will become an issue in the case, IF the case survives summary dismissal.

To my knowledge, there is no law in any state that compels an individual to act in an emergency. Given that, IF you act, you COULD be held responsible for acting in a way contrary to any specialized training you might have. Remember, under the law, you are typically expected to act with reasonable care in anything thing you do. That said, there are specific laws in many states that protect you completely from damage you do in an attempt to mitigate the damages of an accident.

Phil Ellis

 

[ScubaSarus]

And what happens if you are not current of your CPR-FA certification?

Just like any EMT cert, you need to be curent on the skills to provide the rescue. If you have your rescue cert and havent practiced the rescue skills for 4 yrs , you cant be considered a rescue diver IMO. You should then revert back to AOW until you refresh your skills. And a whole new can of worms is opened because now we can do the same for DM rankings.

 

[jimdiverman]

I am no lawyer, but a similar situation exists in medicine. Physicians are shielded by what are called "good samaritan" laws which give them immunity if they stop to help someone in distress who is not their official patient.

Good samaritan laws are designed to encourage professionals to get involved with emergencies that unfold before their eyes. Without such laws, a doctor would think twice about helping a man choking on a hot dog at a ballgame, or assisting a pedestrian struck by a car.

Good samaritan laws are for everyone, not just physicians and dive professionals. If you have had some training and there is no one else around, you have implied consent from the victim to assist them in saving their life. I would encourage everyone to get involved and take an EFR class or update your certification. I have done so, and I really enjoy taking the courses. I have yet to find myself in a life or death situation where I needed to help someone who is dying, but I would not hesitate to do so if the situation arose. I would hope that someone would be there for me before EMS arrived as well.

 

[ScubaSarus]

Good samaritan laws do require competence though. For instance, you can not perform chest compressions on a person who's heart is still beating and that could happen if you are not updated on CPR/FA skills and one fails to notice a heartbeat in the heat of the moment.

There are fine lines that can be drawn. The key is that one be trained and follow the proper procedures of due dilligence of thier training that in turn require you to be current on your skills.

The rescue diver cert doesnt require you to be current and is a PADI/NAUI standard that could be attacked in courts since it doesnt require recertification.

Lawyer: How come the victim sustained additional injuries beyond the emergency?
RD: I tried to help him as best as my training taught me.
Lawyer: When were you trained ?
RD: 5 years ago.
Lawyer: Have you refeshed your training:
RD: NO? PADI/NAUI doesn't require it. (CORRECTED next post PADI does require recert to keep RD Cert.)
Jury:hmmmmmmmm......

What Im saying is the Rescue certs should require refreshment every 3 yrs to keep your rescue cert and should be completed for a reasonable cost of a first aid course $40 or under.

If CPR/FA is a requirement for RD, then they must be kept current to keep your RD Cert.

 

[jimdiverman]

Lawyer: How come the victim sustained additional injuries beyond the emergency?
RD: I tried to help him as best as my training taught me.
Lawyer: When were you trained ?
RD: 5 years ago.
Lawyer: Have you refeshed your training:
RD: NO? PADI/NAUI doesn't require it.
Jury:hmmmmmmmm......

What Im saying is the Rescue certs should require refreshment every 3 yrs to keep your rescue cert and should be completed for a reasonable cost of a first aid course $40 or under.

PADI requires recertifying on EFR every 2 years.