LDS Scams

[MSP Rescue Diver]

The companies know that most people pay for vastly more cell service than they actually use.

Ha! Try telling that to my wife and daughters.

Marc

 

[MikeFerrara]

Given that I have dealer agreements and pricing policies from most of the major suppliers in the market, and they look to all have been written by the same lawyer, I'd say that its a good assumption, since if you sell any of those brand names, that's what you got shoved down your throat.

Pete, I did look into opening a shop here. The first test was to identify the brand(s) I would be able to carry without having that garbage foisted off on me as a condition of my dealership.

The result of that search left me with the above conclusion.

Those who wish to challenge it are welcome to present their evidence. They can begin with the brand(s) they allege have no vertical price restraints.

This is all true. It's not just the prices that are restricted but the very business model is dictated to the shop. Simply put the shop is treated like an employee of the manufacturer rather than a customer.

Toward the end when we started to get some ideas on how to strike back we were out of resourses and it was too late. The one problem we never solved though is where to buy stock as a non-dealer. I know LP does it but I've never found out where.

The other problem was insurance. Usinf corperate veils were suggested to us but that doesn't seem to be fool proof either. At least it's not as simple as it seems.

You play by the rules or you're out.

 

[Genesis]

Can you suggest a list of companies willing to work that way with a dealer so the dealer can offer a viable full selection of gear for his clientel?

One - Abyss. And I have patronized them (directly, since there are no local dealers near me.)

So you're saying that if you could find a dealer who would sell to you at the prices you want to pay, you'd patronize his establishment.

No, I am saying that if I could find a dealer who refused to promulgate price-fixing, I would shop in his store to the extent that what he offered comported with what I needed to buy, and would attempt to negotiate transactions there. I may or may not be successful in doing so, but I would give him an honest shot at the business.

That would be up to you to produce that list. I was the one who suggested that none might escape your brush's broad sweep. Can you name any "acceptable" dealers who are untainted by your brush?

There are anywhere from none to very few. I suppose LeisurePro qualifies, and they are indeed a "LDS", in that they do have a retail store, but they're a bit far to be a "local" dive shop for me. If I lived in NY (which I wouldn't), then they would be a LDS for me though. I do occasionally buy from them, but there isn't a whole lot that they have that I also need.

Diver's Supply has garnered some business from me, although I do refuse to buy many items there, because those lines are price-fixed. However, not everything they carry is (UK is an example - I bought a couple of backup lights from them recently.)

A number of items that I want and are price-fixed in the US are available from outside the US. Even with paying shipping AND duty, they're cheaper from Europe! Why? Because the EU actually enforces anti-trust law and the kind of price-restraint that is practiced here causes people to go to jail over there. As an example, I can buy an Apeks DS4 for just a bit over $100 across the pond, even with the extremely unfavorable exchange rate, shipping and customs duties right now. That same reg is about DOUBLE that price here.

Okay. Here's the problem as I see it. You, in internet dive forum terms at least, have the ability to produce discourse as articulate and erudite as any I've encountered. Unfortunately you choose to be obdurate and unforgiving in your position in re lds owners and manufacturers. Some of the uninitiated readers will probably confuse your unswerving focus with right. You and I know this is morally & ethically wrong. Many of the most persuasive orators in history have abused their powers of persuasion to influence the proletariat to serve their own selfish ends. In your case your ends are ostensibly for the public good, but still selfish nonetheless. If you'd only at least pretend to see both sides, your arguments would get better acceptance from a broader range of readers. I've already admitted in private that I don't disagree with all you've said, but I could never bring myself to support your position with the all or nothing stance you take on dealers.
JohnF

The dealers have brought this on themselves.

Look up "Scuba Retailers Association" sometime on the net. They took a dirt nap, by the way, after being sued by the FTC over attempted restraint of trade (they tried to blackball a snorkel manufacturer who wanted to sell through mail order.)

Now tell me that it has changed since that happened. It hasn't. The lawyers just got "cute" to get around the law. That actually makes it worse - in addition to being malicious, now we add "sneaky" to the mix.

Not good.

It would take a VERY SMALL number of retailers to bring this house of cards down. Here is how:

1. 10, 20 or 50 dive stores get together and form a buying co-op. They form a legal corporation that exists to provide a distribution channel TO THEM for their gear.

2. That coop now picks on one of the manufacturers. Pick one of the "quality" names, but not one of the top volume guys (e.g. not Scubapro - perhaps Oceanic, for example.) The coop goes to them and says "We want to buy <X> regulators on an open PO over the next year. However, we will not accept price controls. We WILL buy these regulators from someone - our shops need regs to sell, of course. Choose.

3. Repeat until you get a "YES". You will. As I've noted, they could go to Abyss if push came to shove (their regs are EXTREMELY high quality - Poesidon/Kirby-Morgan combos, and they have several combiantions at different price points.)

4. Now you FIRE all the non-conforming manufacturers as a group, and you do so very loudly and publically.

It would take all of about 30 seconds for word of this to get around, and about 30 more seconds for 20 more of these buying coops to spring up around the country.

Not only would these shops solve the problem for themselves, they'd get a better price - buying in volume tends to do that. AND, they'd solve the problem for their customers.

HOWEVER, they'd now have to compete between themselves on both price and service. That would require that you do something other than hide behind a price-fixing agreement.

The only reason these agreements exist is because essentially all of the existing LDSs agree to and want them. It only takes an EXTREMELY small percentage of dissidents to cause the destruction of this kind of policy by a group of manufacturers. The lack of any resistance is all the proof I need, since resistance, in this case, is NOT futile.

Indeed, these policies look to have been invented by the shops as a collusive act. Indeed, why else would they be nearly universal through the industry?

Oh sure, there will be manufacturers who will resist - niche folks like Halcyon can afford to give the finger to the coops, just like Fosgate has with car audio.

But they are not the majority by any means.

The dealers get painted with the brush because it is they who mixed the paint.

 

[JohnF]

All rhetoric aside, it sounds to me like you want to suck and blow at the same time. As I've already said, you're not completely wrong, but the way you describe things, it all comes down to the manufacturers being too greedy. Have you considered the costs of limited production runs? Despite how influential you feel the divers buying potential is, are you certain it can ever be large enough to affect the production costs of enough manufacturers to drive prices down and still allow enough profit margin for manufacturers and retailers to justify their involvement.

No offense to Chris & Joel at Abyss, and I'm reasonably familiar with their products, thanks to a good friend of mine in Ohio who has been an avid Abysmal supporter for some time now. I've even got some of their products in my dive kit. But their company is in business to succeed and prosper, and if they have no market competition, do you honestly believe they'll continue to offer the deals they've been offering on the net? As soon as you eliminate the competition they'll have to start working their prices higher to justify the company's investment in production and marketing. I doubt they'll argue that point, but they might.

From your posts I see that you purchased Oxycheq wings when they offered alternatives. Again, I certainly can't fault your choice, but why did you go that route instead of supporting the only manufacturer you imply is "fair"?

If you really stand behind your purported principles, I'd have thought you'd support the supplier who you claim epitomizes the kind of manufacturer you want them all to be. Ergo, you want to suck and blow at the same time.

Respectfully
JohnF

 

[Genesis]

Oxycheq doesn't price-fix to the best of my knowledge.

You are grasping at straws to justify calling names.

 

[JohnF]

Oxycheq doesn't price-fix to the best of my knowledge.

You are grasping at straws to justify calling names.

Your rejoinder is weak and disappointing. Are you finally stuck for answers? Hang on till I see if there's a snowball melting in my personal hell.

JohnF

 

[OkieDiver]

This thread got me curious so I talked to the owner of the LDS I frequent. They sell Sherwood, Genesis, Dacor, Zeagle, Tusa and Cressi-Sub. According to this owner, the only constraint they had was the price they could ADVERTISE the product - Print, TV/Radio, Internet. If you walked into the store they could sell the product for any price they deemed appropriate to make the sale. Maybe this LDS owner is doing it wrong. I don't know.

 

[JohnF]

This thread got me curious so I talked to the owner of the LDS I frequent. They sell Sherwood, Genesis, Dacor, Zeagle, Tusa and Cressi-Sub. According to this owner, the only constraint they had was the price they could ADVERTISE the product - Print, TV/Radio, Internet. If you walked into the store they could sell the product for any price they deemed appropriate to make the sale. Maybe this LDS owner is doing it wrong. I don't know.

If you trust this particular lds owner to give an honest answer, would you ask him how he feels about pricing on air fills? For example, can he make a profit at $5 per fill, or is it a loss leader to keep his customers coming in? I'm curious to hear another shop owner's answer. The one who recently closed here said he couldn't.

JohnF

 

[Genesis]

Zeagle and Tusa are known (as of last year anyway) to have vertical price restraints.

It would be interesting to see how his prices compare on a Zeagle Ranger (which is expensive enough to give him plenty of negotiating room) with other online sellers of the gear.

Perhaps the walls are coming down over the last year or so. If so, then that's good news - all the agitating the pressure from the online sellers is WORKING.

 

[OkieDiver]

They have Rangers marked at MSRP, BUT they will deal. Why would you put a lower price on a product when you know most people expect to deal anyway? Isn't the premise of free enterprise to get the most for a product you can? Just like a consumer expects to get a product for the least price. If someone walks in and pays full retail is that wrong? I believe it may by foolish or an uninformed consumer, but I don't believe it is wrong. For JOHNF I will see what I can find out. I do know they just raised the price of air fills to $5 from $4 in January. Also they started charging for the Eddy current (Visual Plus) test in January which they have not charged for in the past.