LDS Scams

[JohnF]

Because they'd sell none of them, and you'd own your own compressor.

Think about it - at $15/pop, you could pay for the compressor in about 150 fills, and a lot of people would do exactly that.

The shop owner can't be competitive at the realistic price per fill, and since he needs to have the compressor and do fills to satisfy his commitments with agencies and manufacturers, he charges what the market will bear. It would be stupid to let the compressor sit idle after spending money on it. $5 fills seem to be the industry standard figure in many areas.

(It doesn't cost $15/fill..... as I've pointed out.)

I don't think anyone suggested it did. I think what was said was that to get a reasonable markup the shop should charge $15. In the business world there is this generally accepted dictum that a shopkeeper needs to make a profit to survive. I'm not sure what your theory of survival for the independent businessman is, but it seems to be centred around selling everything at cost or less. If you have some formula for turning that into business success, publish it. The book will earn you millions.

The cellphone analogy doesn't hold. To get the cheap phone you must contract to have service for one or two years - at a fixed price. The companies know that most people pay for vastly more cell service than they actually use.

How many times does a diver use all the air in his tank?

Thus, you are paying for the phone - just not all at once. Try cancelling the service early and you will be penalized - usually about the difference in the form of a "cancellation fee" - that you saved on the phone.

You know what I was trying to show. Something you just can't seem to accept is that business cannot survive selling nothing but "loss leaders".

Just out of curiosity, when you were in business, did you price all your services and products at less than cost? I'm sure your answer will be "of course not". So my second question would be "What do you deem to be a reasonable margin over actual cost for a small local dive shop to try to maintain on retail sales and services?" Your answer might help to clarify some of the confusion I for one have with your position vis-a-vis dealers and manufacturers.

JohnF

 

[Genesis]

You know what I was trying to show. Something you just can't seem to accept is that business cannot survive selling nothing but "loss leaders".

Just out of curiosity, when you were in business, did you price all your services and products at less than cost? I'm sure your answer will be "of course not". So my second question would be "What do you deem to be a reasonable margin over actual cost for a small local dive shop to try to maintain on retail sales and services?" Your answer might help to clarify some of the confusion I for one have with your position vis-a-vis dealers and manufacturers.

JohnF

I sold nothing as a "loss leader." We were many times accused of doing it by others who couldn't compete with us, but we never did. Not once in the entire time I ran the place. More importantly to the point at hand, I never claimed (falsely) that I was doing so in an attempt to garner sympathy either.

Every product and service I sold was profitable at the price offered. Some more profitable than others, but all were in fact profitable. If we could not make a profit on a given product or service, we didn't sell it. This did indeed keep us from selling a number of products and services - we elected not to serve those markets rather than lose money on them.

There is no point in trying to "make it up on volume" when each incremental unit of volume results in a loss.

"Loss leaders" which are actually sold at a loss (rather than those which someone falsely claims are sold at a loss in an attempt to generate PITY for their operation) are a fool's game unless you have some means of forcing the consumer to not pick and choose what they do and don't buy, or you tie the sale of the losing merchandise to that which isn't losing - in which case its not a loss-leader at all, but a bundled product offering - sold at a profit.

Nobody who wants to stay in business sells something at 1/3rd to 1/5th of what it costs to provide.

Ever.

I have no problem with retailers independantly setting the margins and thus prices on their merchandise and services. I have a major problem with them colluding in the setting of those prices, and so does the government. That people have figured out how to do this through the back door and evade the law (by pretending that this is all a unilateral "policy" - when they know damn well what it is BEFORE accepting the dealership, and that its the same for everyone nationally - the definition of price-fixing) doesn't change what's going on from an ethical perspective.

 

[JohnF]

I have no problem with retailers independantly setting the margins and thus prices on their merchandise and services. I have a major problem with them colluding in the setting of those prices, and so does the government. That people have figured out how to do this through the back door and evade the law (by pretending that this is all a unilateral "policy" - when they know damn well what it is BEFORE accepting the dealership, and that its the same for everyone nationally - the definition of price-fixing) doesn't change what's going on from an ethical perspective.

Do you ever worry that you might be unfairly painting some ethical businesspersons with your wide brush, or are you content to have all lds operators guilty by association?

JohnF

 

[Genesis]

Do you ever worry that you might be unfairly painting some ethical businesspersons with your wide brush, or are you content to have all lds operators guilty by association?

JohnF

If you can find one of these LDS operators who has refused to accept such price-fixing policies, and/or carries no gear that contains such a restraint and independantly prices his product, then I will be happy to recognize that operator. However, I will ask for evidence, particularly if they're carrying lines that contain such restraints.

Indeed, if such a LDS exists, I would strongly recommend that people patronize that store. If they had things I can use in my diving, I'd likely even buy from them if it meant they had to ship stuff to me.

I've yet to find such a LDS; if they exist, they can always stand up and differentiate themselves from the crowd.

If the brush is unfairly broad, then let's see the list of exceptions so that a realistic judgement can be made as to whether its unfair or not.

 

[The Chairman]

What he really meant to say was that they are guilty until proven innocent. What a concept!

 

[Genesis]

What he really meant to say was that they are guilty until proven innocent. What a concept!

Given that I have dealer agreements and pricing policies from most of the major suppliers in the market, and they look to all have been written by the same lawyer, I'd say that its a good assumption, since if you sell any of those brand names, that's what you got shoved down your throat.

Pete, I did look into opening a shop here. The first test was to identify the brand(s) I would be able to carry without having that garbage foisted off on me as a condition of my dealership.

The result of that search left me with the above conclusion.

Those who wish to challenge it are welcome to present their evidence. They can begin with the brand(s) they allege have no vertical price restraints.

 

[Groundhog246]

I know a lot of folks who read these threads don't like to hear support for the lds, but don't lose sight of the reason why the lds is in business. It's a rare dealer who won't admit he's in it to make a living, or at least to augment his income, and if he says otherwise he's either afraid to admit the truth or is independently wealthy.
---snip---
We want them for our own convenience. We love to have the shop to drop into to touch and feel the newest gear, to try on a coveted drysuit, to pick up a few little gizmoes to solve our dangly problem, to get a quick fix on a troublesome reg or a new battery in the hockey puck.

JohnF

John I agree with most of what you said. Many forget that for a full time shop owner, his entire income is a result of what people spend in his store. If you've got to make it on gear and other sales to 50 new divers a year plus another few hundred established divers (and probably not more than a couple of hundred who dive with any frequency), then the markup on the equipment will be fairly generous. If he's not making money, why do it?

OTOH, where's the shop where I can go try a drysuit? The LDS where I've trained and where I spend most of my $$, prefers (for good reasons) one brand of suit. It's semi custom (built to fit, from "standard" components) and it's a very nice suit. But he has no stock units that I can try one in the pool or rent one. I've gotta plunk down a large chunk of $$$ and wait for my new suit (although I know from others who've bought, the delivery time is excellent and their repair turnaround outstanding) and then I get to try it and see if I like drysuit diving. I'm very much inclined to buy a lesser brand, stock suit (in wetsuits I'm almost a perfect medium) that I can get for half the price. If it only last me 5 or 6 years and I want to continue diving dry, then I could buy the high end suit or sell it even sooner and move up if I so desired. Or even look for a decent used suit. Or should I go to another shop, try theirs on, decide if I like it and go back to my LDS and order one? If it's a rental situation, then I've paid to try the suit, if not, then I'm "ripping off" the store where I'm trying a suit and not buying. And the same holds for other gear. If I can try the gear, at least in the pool. If nothing is in stock and I have to wait while they order it in, then the only advantage over the online store is after sale support.

It's be great if every town had a store like Dive Tech in Mallorytown, with a huge stock and good prices (at least appeared so to me), but the population base of divers has to be there to support it. If we want stores in smaller areas, close to where we live, we must be prepared tospend a little more.

 

[JohnF]

If you can find one of these LDS operators who has refused to accept such price-fixing policies, and/or carries no gear that contains such a restraint and independantly prices his product, then I will be happy to recognize that operator. However, I will ask for evidence, particularly if they're carrying lines that contain such restraints.

Can you suggest a list of companies willing to work that way with a dealer so the dealer can offer a viable full selection of gear for his clientel?

Indeed, if such a LDS exists, I would strongly recommend that people patronize that store. If they had things I can use in my diving, I'd likely even buy from them if it meant they had to ship stuff to me.

So you're saying that if you could find a dealer who would sell to you at the prices you want to pay, you'd patronize his establishment. I respectfully submit that from what I've seen of your ideology here on the net, you'd take that as a sign of weakness or stupidity on his part and beat him down even lower. The dealer who can satisfy your requirements is in all probability a loser, well on the road to insolvency. Your kind of custom will likely finish the job.

{quote]I've yet to find such a LDS; if they exist, they can always stand up and differentiate themselves from the crowd.[/quote]

They'll be the ones with the big "L" painted in red on their foreheads.

If the brush is unfairly broad, then let's see the list of exceptions so that a realistic judgement can be made as to whether its unfair or not.

That would be up to you to produce that list. I was the one who suggested that none might escape your brush's broad sweep. Can you name any "acceptable" dealers who are untainted by your brush? I've already named a few I thought treated me well, but that only means something to the folks who've had similarly positive experiences with those few dealers, a very small fraction of the folks who read this forum.

Okay. Here's the problem as I see it. You, in internet dive forum terms at least, have the ability to produce discourse as articulate and erudite as any I've encountered. Unfortunately you choose to be obdurate and unforgiving in your position in re lds owners and manufacturers. Some of the uninitiated readers will probably confuse your unswerving focus with right. You and I know this is morally & ethically wrong. Many of the most persuasive orators in history have abused their powers of persuasion to influence the proletariat to serve their own selfish ends. In your case your ends are ostensibly for the public good, but still selfish nonetheless. If you'd only at least pretend to see both sides, your arguments would get better acceptance from a broader range of readers. I've already admitted in private that I don't disagree with all you've said, but I could never bring myself to support your position with the all or nothing stance you take on dealers.
JohnF

 

[JohnF]

OTOH, where's the shop where I can go try a drysuit? The LDS where I've trained and where I spend most of my $$, prefers (for good reasons) one brand of suit. It's semi custom (built to fit, from "standard" components) and it's a very nice suit. But he has no stock units that I can try one in the pool or rent one.

It's be great if every town had a store like Dive Tech in Mallorytown, with a huge stock and good prices (at least appeared so to me), but the population base of divers has to be there to support it. If we want stores in smaller areas, close to where we live, we must be prepared tospend a little more.

I was only criticizing folks who use the lds's stock and expertise to get fitted, then buy elsewhere. Obviously you can't do that if your favourite lds doesn't stock the sizes. If the dealer doesn't want to stock the size range, I don't see why you have any obligation to buy through him. In my case I drive to London to buy my suits from Travel Sports. Doug's always had a range of sizes for me to try on. I've bought 4 suits from his shop including my drysuit.

In fact, the only suit I've bought at another shop was from Steve at Buckeye in the Cleveland area. He happened to have a ScubaPro skin in stock, so I tried it, and bought it.

I've noticed the lack of inventory in your area (30 miles away from my home) which is why I generally drive to London to shop dive gear. In fairness to your fave lds, he was the only one in the area who stocked the short inflator hose I needed, and he also was quick to order in a gasket I wanted for my wing. Not that I couldn't have gone back to Dean's to order it, but Bruce just grabbed the phone and ordered it on the spot, no arguments. It wasn't like he was gonna retire off the profits of the sale. So despite the fact that he doesn't stock a good selection of dry suits, he's not all bad in my book. 8)

JohnF

 

[The Chairman]

I guess to paraphrase Karl's convictions with a single statement...

"Kill em all and let God sort em out!"

or...

"The only good LDS is a dead LDS!"