Knot for ice diving rig

[Gary D.]

Can you explain why you wouldn't use a bowline ?

I can't (and am not qualified to), comment on ice diving, so please don't take my comment as advice. I'm only curious about why a bowline would be a no-no for life support applications.

For working at height (at the top of 60 ft sailboat masts), we would commonly use a bowline. For extra security I tie two locking half hitches after the bowline.

The only time I have ever seen a bowline fail is when the knot was not snugged tight, there was an insufficient tail left in the rope and it was in a load cycling environment (i.e. tied to the corner of a very big carbon/kevlar sail in 40 kts of breeze).

I can't for sure but all of our rescue training says no to bowline's. I know that if they don't have pressure on the all the time they can loosen on their own. Doing the half hitches locks the bowline which helps. Working on a mast is constent pressure.

As far as ice goes we have been trained to use a figure eight with a locking beaner. With the beaner who cares how easy it is to untie. It can be untied when it's thawed out.

We also hear of people using their BC as a harness instead of a seperate harness. That is also a no-no. Or they will put a harness over a BC, another no-no.

I for one do not was a knot that is easy to untie when my bacon is on the line.

Gary D.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Gary D. is on the mark. A Bowline can come undone if not under constant load and it's common to have slack during an ice dive, especially if you are holding the line in a hand and are allowing slack in the rope between the hand and the harness. If you use on tape or tie the end off to prevent it from working loose.

Many people incorrectly call an "Overhand Loop Knot" a "Figure of Eight" knot when the latter is really stopper knot designed to be used in something like the end of a jib sheet and does not in fact involve a loop at all. The Overhand Loop Knot is easy to tie in the end or even middle of a line but it it is very hard to get undone once tension has been applied.

A "Figure of Eight Loop" or "Flemish Loop" is the knot commonly used by climbers to put a loop in a line and is usually preferred to the Bowline as it is easy to tie, dress and check, but again it can be hard to untie after it has been loaded.

If you are not using a carabiner and need to tie into a D-ring a Double Bowline or Water Bowline are better alternatives to the regular bowline as they are much more secure/less likey to untie themselves.

An Anchor Bend, and Anchor Bend Variant are also much better choices than a Bowline as they are more secure and also easy to untie. They were designed for use with wet slippery ropes.

Another option is a Palomar Knot tied onto a locking carabiner and then snapped to the harness. It is reasonably easy to tie and untie and is quite secure - but not as strong as a Figure of Eight Loop.

 

[bradshsi]

Gary D. is on the mark. A Bowline can come undone if not under constant load and it's common to have slack during an ice dive, especially if you are holding the line in a hand and are allowing slack in the rope between the hand and the harness. If you use on tape or tie the end off to prevent it from working loose.

Many people incorrectly call an "Overhand Loop Knot" a "Figure of Eight" knot when the latter is really stopper knot designed to be used in something like the end of a jib sheet and does not in fact involve a loop at all.

Thanks for the information. I have to admit I was confused about people referring to a "Figure of Eight" knot. As you pointed out, it's a knot we routinely use as a stop knot for jib & main (but not spinnaker), sheets. As to why anyone would have used one for securing a rope was beyond me ...

 

[Greg D.]

Figure 8 is quick and easy, and as was stated earlier, use a locking carbiner on you harness and its really easy to get off the rope when necessary! We had Ice diving/rescue training this weekend and the fig 8 was the knot of choice!

Besides I am not really concerned with how hard it is to untie for two reasons, one I don't ever want it to come off till I am ready, and two if I need it to come off in a hurry I have 2 knives and a pear of shears right where I can get at 'em

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Figure 8 is quick and easy, and as was stated earlier, use a locking carbiner on you harness and its really easy to get off the rope when necessary! We had Ice diving/rescue training this weekend and the fig 8 was the knot of choice!

It's probably a lost cause... but it's called a "Figure of Eight Loop" knot or a "Flemish Loop", not a Figure 8 knot.

God save the sailors from all the ignorant climbers.

 

[PaulChristenson]

Can you explain why you wouldn't use a bowline ?

I can't (and am not qualified to), comment on ice diving, so please don't take my comment as advice. I'm only curious about why a bowline would be a no-no for life support applications.

For working at height (at the top of 60 ft sailboat masts), we would commonly use a bowline. For extra security I tie two locking half hitches after the bowline.

The only time I have ever seen a bowline fail is when the knot was not snugged tight, there was an insufficient tail left in the rope and it was in a load cycling environment (i.e. tied to the corner of a very big carbon/kevlar sail in 40 kts of breeze).

Rescue services have switched to the Figure-8 family of knots with safeties...
Figure 8 on a bight
Figure 8 follow-thru
Figure 8 for joining two ropes with safeties

 

[Diver0001]

I can't for sure but all of our rescue training says no to bowline's. I know that if they don't have pressure on the all the time they can loosen on their own. Doing the half hitches locks the bowline which helps. Working on a mast is constent pressure.

As far as ice goes we have been trained to use a figure eight with a locking beaner. With the beaner who cares how easy it is to untie. It can be untied when it's thawed out.

I see. I concur, that would be the most secure way to rig the safety line.

The issue you'll get then is that the diver's kit has to have an appropriate attachment point. A good harnass and steel D rings. Many BCD's don't have good attachment points for a biner and it could rip/break free, especially if being "hauled" in in an emergency.... Just something to keep in mind if you want to use this method.

We were taught when using a safety line not to attach it to a D ring but to tie the safety-line around your whole body. Being able to get the knot undone is a consideration when you do that. The figure-8 can still be used around your whole body and it's still a lot more secure than a bowline but it takes two hands to tie and it may freeze unless you undo it before exiting the water...... Just a couple more things to consider depending on how you approach it.

R..

 

[Whatgoesdown]

Historically, the bowline is taught to every sailor in the RN as a self-rescue knot because it can be tied on-handed around oneself so don't discount it as a rescue knot! Even when it has been pulled tight it is one of the easier knots to undo. However, it is not suitable for the application described, as others have noted it can shake loose when not under tension. The figure of eight loop is a great choice, as is the angler's loop, the latter is best undone with a knife! Not being an ice diver I don't claim to speak from a position of authority but, is a loop the best way to go? To keep things as tangle free as possible I would be inclined to go with a more compact knot which snugs up against the ring, something like an anchor hitch or buntline hitch. What is the community's take? The only downside I can see is that the hitches would weaken the line more than the loops but the line isn't going to snap until the orca that has your foot really hits top speed and the pickup jams in the hole up top.

My choice would be a line with a 'Y' splice at the end, two carabiners and two attachment points on a harness, but then I don't ice dive!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with you on the cleaner nature and advantages of using an Anchor Bend or a variant of an anchor bend (which are really hitches, not a bends) or a Palomar knot.

To clip into two D-rings using carabiners, I would use a Spanish Bowline (aka: chair knot) as both loops can carry the load.

The reality is though that many people just cannot remember how to tie many of these knots. Figure Eight Loops are easy to remember how to tie and even if someone screws it up, they still (usually) have an overhand loop knot that will work for low strenght applications like ice diving.

With regard to looping the line around your body, it's a lot better than tying the line to a d-tring on a BC, but is no where near as good as tying it to D-ring on a harness.

Of course with the increased use of BP/wings with 2" webbing and heavy D-rings, this is perhaps no longer entirely true. I would be comfortable with attaching an ice diving line to my BP wing harness, since the full load bearing qualities of a safety harness not really required and I think it would be vastly more secure than a bowline around my body. This would be especially true with the line carabinered to each chest D-ring.

 

[SteveAD]

spliced loop on the rope carabinered to ss harness d-ring