Kiss Counterlung Plugs

[ReDi]

Hello everyone,

I am considering buying a Kiss Classic and I have looked into many units quite heavily. Two major issues people have with the classic is flood tolerance and WOB. I have seen two units with a very specific modification (one in person and one from a user here, about 2 years ago) that used plugs in the counterlung holes on the head, and changed the loop to use "normal" backmount lungs, such as golem gear, subgravity or ATS. This would make the unit a decent bit more flood tolerant since you'd be able to use T pieces and drain the lungs, and would eliminate the need for the bulky case (which restricts access, changes hose routing a bit, and is harder to pack in a suitcase).

For this mod to work though, special plugs are needed. I have contacted nearly everyone I can think of, from Kim and Mike, to N@90, to Martin at tecme, Pmd a few users here with classic kiss experience etc etc etc and the closest I got is being told martin had a pair once, but I was the only person to ask in over 15 years for them. Several places sell cleaning plugs for the head, but they aren't rated for water use (over/underpressure from ascents/descents) and as far as I am aware they won't work for this.


My use for the unit would have me traveling and needing to save space when possible, and some form of flood tolerance would be great as well, so this mod would be very useful to me. I know the plugs exist because I have seen them, and martin said he had them in the past but I can't for the life of me seem to source them. If anyone has info on these plugs please let me know, or another way to accomplish this. Would prefer it to be semi-permanent solution so I could reverse if I wasn't happy with it. My next option would possibly be to CNC some (delrin maybe?) but simply buying some seems easiest.

On another note if you know anyone selling a used classic too let me know. Haven't seen many on the used market lately.

Thanks

 

[JonG1]

I dive a KC and whilst the flood recovery is poor (non-existent) it is flood tolerant due to the backed up o-rings, the closest I have got was an overfill on the scrubber leading to a limited, but persistent drop in loop volume, but at such a rate that the make up via dil or O2 kept water out. I have also inadvertently managed to dive it with 2 cracked counter lung adjustment rings (please don't judge!) without it flooding.

Weak points are the hoses and mainly mouthpiece from what I read from others, I use a Draeger lip seal though which helps because it is pretty heavy duty. The original KISS BOV on mine did leak but the trap always caught the volume that passed.

Given that the counter lung rings are the same thread and diameter as MSR Dromedary bags can you not get a machined plug made up?

I have no comparison but the WOB has always been OK if the unit sits high, lungs are sized appropriately etc. I also vac the dust during a fill, both in the open scrubber and the gas direction tube and this makes a big difference to clumping of the sorb that could imapct WOB.

 

[ReDi]

Thanks for the response.

Yes I suppose I should have specified flood recovery instead of tolerance, simply bad wording on my part and I appreciate you pointing that out.

With such a mod I would intend on replacing the hoses and the mouthpiece (I'm currently considering the golem bov, since I have felt it before, haven't tried the divesoft but have heard equally good things).

I have considered having plugs machined to match the threads, but if someone has plugs or knows where to get them that would be much easier as I have no CNC experience, only some very very minor CAD work.

You mentioned vac-ing the sorb, which sorb do you use in this unit? I know kiss recommends a certain type but the couple people I have known with this unit use a different type, (Kiss tested the unit with 4-8 mesh and they use a 797 8-12 mesh, or vice versa, been a while since I asked).

Thanks again for the input. Doesn't seem to be quite as popular of a unit as it once was, so not many people have been able to give me advice.

 

[JonG1]

I use 797 Sofnolime and have tried various approaches in terms of packing and filling, mainly due to clumping in early usage, cupping with the palms and vacuuming the tube and can has given best results.

I use a Shrimp and gag strap and been fine but I have no comparative experience!

I think there is a technique to breathing on a RB to get the best from it but this is probably unit/user specific.

I certainly haven't noticed WOB issues though.

In terms of flood recovery given that the bags are cheap and easily replaced, it may be possible to tap an OPV into the base of them, but not sure if the bulk of any flood would end up in the can as opposed to the lungs given the machining in the head, this is definitely where it went when my BOV was leaking and barrel rolls to shift fluid from the exhale hose also routes it to here.

in the early days I read about absorbent towels in the base of the scrubber but this seems to have died off now. There are some good FB pages that may be worth a look, some of the Northern European lads are always machining bits to suit.

I really like mine, but then again I'm biased and can't afford a second unit to compare against!

On FB:

KISS rebreather divers tips and tricks (probably most innovative)
KISSbase
KISS rebreather divers official page

 

[ReDi]

Yeah, even putting a dump valve on the msr bags wouldn't really help because any mouthpiece or hose issues would flood the head first pretty much inherently in the design unless I'm sorely mistaken.

As you mention, I have also heard of the towels in the scrubber, but I wonder how effective that is overall. For small bits it may help, but stuff would have to get through the scrubber first to hit the towels anyways, which might lead to channeling before the towels can catch it. Not sure, I've never tried them, maybe someone else can comment.

To clarify though, this mod would not really be focused on the WOB even though I included it in the top complaints because it's just a major complaint that I have heard. Granted most people I have heard that from moved to units with much better WOB like a meg, but I'm fine if the mod doesn't help as long as I can get rid of the case and get some water out through the lungs.

Thanks for the FB pages. I don't have an account but may make one to check it out.

Do you have a link or an email to any of the European people you mention who machine stuff? I'm stateside but might email them anyways.

 

[Brad_Horn]

I am considering buying a Kiss Classic and I have looked into many units quite heavily. Two major issues people have with the classic is flood tolerance and WOB.
My use for the unit would have me traveling and needing to save space when possible,

Noting your specific requirements, bar the saving space, though it is light. I'd with a significant bias suggest you look for a 2nd hand Apoc Type IV mCCR with PPO2 Monitoring fitted.
You'd get all the functionality of a CK, but with the best available WOB of any rebreather sold/available (1.44J/L at 40m on Air at 75lpm) and get a unit that is 100% flood recoverable. Both BMCL feature custom OPVs that allow any water in the loop to be purged underwater; and as the scrubber drains into the inhale CL, this will naturally de-water as the loop is purged.
For travel it will fit whatever cylinders are available at site on its siderails inclusive AL80's.

I'd sell you a new one equally as happily, but you'll get a full warranty with the 2nd hand one transferred over.

 

[ReDi]

Noting your specific requirements, bar the saving space, though it is light. I'd with a significant bias suggest you look for a 2nd hand Apoc Type IV mCCR with PPO2 Monitoring fitted.
You'd get all the functionality of a CK, but with the best available WOB of any rebreather sold/available (1.44J/L at 40m on Air at 75lpm) and get a unit that is 100% flood recoverable. Both BMCL feature custom OPVs that allow any water in the loop to be purged underwater; and as the scrubber drains into the inhale CL, this will naturally de-water as the loop is purged.
For travel it will fit whatever cylinders are available at site on its siderails inclusive AL80's.

I'd sell you a new one equally as happily, but you'll get a full warranty with the 2nd hand one transferred over.

Not a chance.

 

[JonG1]

Ramblings on Modifications

Old thread but might be worth a read.

Could you not add a trap in the exhale loop before the head, I think there is a thread on CCR Explorers about an OAK (one of a kind) unit where he added a trap inline from Martin at Tecme?

 

[JonG1]

My OAK Rebreather - Introduction

 

[ReDi]

Good threads @JonG1 Thanks.

Not quite sure what you mean by add a trap, is there some kind of weird inline trap I haven't seen? I don't see one from a quick look on martins site or CCRX. I wish some of those CCRX users had logged in since 2013, would love to send some messages out to them. Those custom hose fittings look interesting.