Is this a dumb setup?

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Nemrod:
I don't understand what your doing actually. An octapus is not an alternate air supply, it is an extra second stage for handing off to an OOA buddy. It provides essentially zero redundancy. Therefore, a 19cf pony with a seperate and complete regulator does provide full redundancy even if the air supply is minimal for deep use. So, if buddy diving I would keep my octapus most likely but if your talking about solo then I would get rid of it. As to recreational length hoses vs tech length hoses you will note that the bungeed regulator on a tech rig is considered to be standard length or shorter. N

What I'm trying to do is kill two birds with one stone. Having the 19 cu ft pony with a dedicated regulator addresses the redundancy issue. By having it on a short hose on a bungee around my neck, and having the primary reg on a 7' hose, I'd donate the primary if my buddy is OOA and then use the pony as my reg. Note that the context here is OW diving in the 60 - 100 ft range... no solo, wreck, cave, deco, trimix, or anything of the sort. What I'm hoping to avoid is hanging another octo on my waist d-ring from the primary reg.
 
Diver0001:
I don't know how you're hanging the pony reg, but any way you do it, I think the extra step of having to open the valve is something you need to consider carefully.
R..

Right now the pony reg is on a short hose on a bungee around my neck (like a DIR backup reg). I've practiced opening the valve and switching regs, but I'm sure that it will be a lot more stressfull in a real OOA.

Diver0001:
I don't know where you should put it if your pony is attached to the tank. I dive doubles with a stage so my "pony" (actually an AL-72) is slung and the reg is attached to the stage until I need it.
R..

I've thought about going with doubles when I go with the bp/w, but I believe I've read a couple of times that a doubles setup isn't recommended when diving in cold water with a wetsuit, due to the large amount of weight that I'd need to wear and not having a redundant buoyancy device (dry suit). Does that only apply to diving steel doubles?

Diver0001:
Also, if I follow your thinking, it loos like the way you're using the pony, you're really addressing a redundancy problem, as opposed to a bail-out problem. Perhaps you'd find it cleaner to just go to small set of doubles (like twin 72's) and do away with the pony altogether.....
R..

I'm not sure I understand the difference between redundancy and bail-out. In my mind they're synonymous for the type of diving I'm doing (basic OW). Can you elaborate? I'm thinking that if there's an event that requires the deployment of an alternate air source, be it a pony or an octo, by either my or my buddy, at that point the dive's over and we're headed straight for the surface in a reasonable, controlled manner.

Diver0001:
Spectrum had a good point for you too but I think that it applies best if you're using a Y or H valve on your main tank.

R..

I guess I'm not clear on what advantage a Y or H valve has over a pony. It addresses a potential regulator failure, but it doesn't address all failure points that might result in an OOA. Granted the main cause of OOA's is diver inattentiveness to air supply, but with all of 16 dives under my belt I'm not going to bet my life that I'm never going to mess that up despite my best efforts and understanding that a pony isn't intended to extend bottom time.
 
Right now the pony reg is on a short hose on a bungee around my neck (like a DIR backup reg). I've practiced opening the valve and switching regs, but I'm sure that it will be a lot more stressfull in a real OOA.

I see. Now I understand better why you're asking this question.

I've thought about going with doubles when I go with the bp/w, but I believe I've read a couple of times that a doubles setup isn't recommended when diving in cold water with a wetsuit, due to the large amount of weight that I'd need to wear and not having a redundant buoyancy device (dry suit). Does that only apply to diving steel doubles?

Not necessarily. It does depend a lot on the tanks you use. If you made twins from AL-72s and used an aluminum backplate the chances are very good that you'll still need a few lbs of ditchable weight. There used to be a guy here called Genesis who did some experiments with twin AL-80's and an aluminum backplate + 5mm wetsuit and he was able to swim them up from 100ft IIRC.

As far as rundundant buoyancy, a drysuit is a good idea but you can get away with using a closed circuit safety sausage (deco buoy) as long as you still have some ditchable weight that you can jettison at the surface.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between redundancy and bail-out. In my mind they're synonymous for the type of diving I'm doing (basic OW). Can you elaborate? I'm thinking that if there's an event that requires the deployment of an alternate air source, be it a pony or an octo, by either my or my buddy, at that point the dive's over and we're headed straight for the surface in a reasonable, controlled manner.

Ok. Maybe the best way to explain the difference is with a scenario. Imagine yourself on a dive where you have *no* access to the surface because of an overhead. That can be a big deco obgligation, or in a cave or under ice, or near a busy shipping lane....something like that. In that situation, if your primary regulator failed and you needed to turn it off then you would go to your octopus. If you only have your pony, then you'd have 19cf of air left to get back to safety, even if there were 120cf of air in your "back-gas" that you can no longer access because of a single failure. In other words, when in this situation, you can't just switch to your pony and surface.

Redundancy says to make sure that you have two ways to access your back gas. This means two complete regulators (1st and 2nd stages) to access all the back-gas. The goal of doing this is to make sure that if your primary regulator fails that you can still access *all* your air and continue the dive..... In fact, you would call the dive, but getting back to the surface may involve a long swim under water first.....

Bail out has a different purpose. It assumes that you have direct access to the surface at every point during the dive and that you can switch to your redundant air source and surface in response to a failed primary. Continuing the dive (or exiting from an overhead) is out of the question because the air supply is too small...

Setting up for redundancy means you either need two tanks, each of which has it's own valve/attachment for a regulator or that you need one tank with a double valve with two attachments for regulators. The single tank version makes use of H and Y valves. They're called H and Y valves because of the form they tend to have. I attached a picture for you (see below). Top left is an H valve, top right is a Y valve and on the bottom is a double valve used for two tanks.

How to configure all this is a subject of some debate. Some famous people said that they think ponies are useless and now a lot of (internet) divers have adopted that standpoint and it gives rise to a lot of "pony vs doubles" debates. If you search on Scubaboard you'll see lots of them and it's a good idea for you to read through a couple to get the gist of the issues.

I personally think that a pony is sufficient for "bail out" (assuming it's big enough) but not for "redundancy". In your case, you clearly have it rigged for bail-out. I don't know if that's your intention, but if you're trying for redudancy then you need another regulator on your back-gas.

Still following? It's not just semantics, it's about in which situations your configuration could be considered safe and in which situations should shouldn't dive with it like that.

The last thing I should say about that is that all the redundancy in the world is useless to you if you can't reach the valves to close/open them. This is definitely a skill that needs to be trained and practiced.

R..
 
Thank you very much for the very clear response. I guess I'd had a vague notion of the difference of redundancy (I've read the DIR Fundamentals book and "Dress for Success" so I have an idea of the various equipment configurations) but I hadn't given any thought to the need for redundancy in non-overhead environments. You are correct that the pony is currently rigged for bail-out and that is it's intended purpose, but you've made an interesting point about constraining myself to the amount of gas in my pony as soon as I donate the primary reg.

If budget were not an issue I'd go with the doubles straight away, but for the short term, it sounds like a more reasonable setup might be a primary with octo on one 1st stage on a single tank with the pony rigged like a stage bottle. Then move to a single tank with an H or Y valve and two regs for redundancy, and the pony rigged like a stage. Then finally, as I get into tech or wreck diving (long-term goal) going with doubles. I may also look at moving to a 30 or 40 cu ft pony. I really appreciate everyones' input.
 
LG.
A few things to consider since you are at a crossroad with direction that you taking diving.

You might want to consider starting off with a configuration that can be built upon as you gain skills and knowledge. If you think that you are going the tech route some day, then for now on rec. dives configure yourself so that your muscle memory will be the same for basic skills down the road.

Points:
Instead of having a slung pony or back mounted pony right now with a bungied backup - perhaps you will want to go with a bungied backup that is more traditionally configured. Should you get into deco diving your slung bottle will have the reg strapped off to it instead of around your neck. Should you start diving with doubles your backup reg will come off your left tank and be routed over your shoulder and then your deco bottle(s) will be configured as above.

The basic skills that you embrace now should be the same skills that you use on a 300' wreck dive later in your diving career. That way you will have plenty of practice with each piece of gear and the configuration will almost become second nature.

I've been there and changed horses in mid stream, so it's not like you can't relearn. It just gets a bit more frustrating later when you realize that you could have been doing it the new found way all along.

Just my 2 psi...
 
Hi OE2X. I think I intended to say the same thing you're saying in my last post, but maybe I didn't make myself as clear as I could have so I want to make sure I understand. I would rig my pony like a stage bottle with the reg and hose strapped to the bottle and hung on the left-side d-rings. For now I'd have an primary 2nd stage and an octo coming off of one 1st stage on my single main tank. Primary is on a 7' hose and the octo is on a short hose on a bungee around my neck. As I progress I'd go to an H-valve with separate 1st stages and eventually double tanks. Is that what you're saying?
 
Yes. Sorry. I misunderstood. IMHO - you are off to a great start.

By the way: Welcome to the board. Just noticed that you only started posting. Keep asking questions and have fun.:D
 
I'd concur with your current plan as far as single tank diving and stage rigging the pony bottle.

I'd look a little differently at the progression. If you want to go with an H or Y valve, that would mean buying a tank and a relatively expensive valve only to then get another tank and remodulate the H valve into a manifold. You already have the pony for additional bail-out should your primary 1st stage go funky, so the addition of a 3rd regulator may or may not do you any good.

You'd probably do better to get a bigger pony bottle that you could then end up using as a deco bottle later, if you decide to go that route. I'd probably recommend an AL40, that seems to be a pretty standard size. Not sure why, but I don't see a lot of 30s out there.

If I were you, I'd do the gear thing in the following order... BP/W (which you said is on the way), 1 good set of regs that you're planning to match later with all the right length hoses, drysuit, AL40 (realistically, you can probably skip this one), then the doubles and all the paraphernalia that goes with that.

Any of that make sense?

Rachel
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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