Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[lamont]

oh what the hell, i'll throw out a few trolls of my own...

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works).

And of course those failures are inevitably fatal in divers because of the crappy LDS training that pushes out new divers will very little training or experience with the equipment.

Most of you feel it’s OK to sell life support equipment to uncertified divers (the only card they need is a gold card ).

strawman.

And of course most of you feel that there is no ethic’s in business, only price.

not true. i select my LDS based on ethics. i like the fact that the guy who runs it doesn't think i'm ready for doubles yet, and has no interest in trying to psych me up to buy a rebreather. i've dropped a crapload of money on him in return.

but really the market isn't going to care if all you do to distinguish yourself is to test equipment before selling it to your customers. if that is as far as your ethics goes, i doubt that the market will support the overhead that your business has compared to an internet store. if you want to try to truly distinguish yourself in equipment selection, training, organized trips, etc then maybe you can make it...

You guys are very sad. It doesn’t say much for this generation of divers.
A couple more things: The internet business model you all seem to love depends on the LDS. To stay in business they have to be able to cherry pick off the work of the LDS.

yes, they can attack your margins through an internet presence and mail order that doesn't require a storefront rental. that can be an extremely successful business model.

LDS fight back by moving to lines that are not sold on the net (and putting pressure on the manufactures). What you have to remember boys and girls is that the grass roots of diving starts at the LDS (that’s where the new divers are first introduced to life support equipment, most new divers buy what there instructor wears or suggest). The internet business model (for scuba) is doomed and will die just like mail order did (ask Skin Diver Magazine). There is no way to replace the LDS with the internet.

Firewalker

i doubt it. i expect that the successful LDSes will be the ones that have popular internet storefronts and can succeed with thinner margins on higher volumes than traditional LDSes.

 

[Ishie]

Why are we even bothering with certification programs, if every one can buy SCUBA?

Uhh, because the goal of certification is to get people prepared for the situations they will encounter diving and to maximize their safety and enjoyment, not to provide a babysitting device for idiots?

I could always buy scuba gear. Yup. Knew I could. I took the class but couldn't do the cert dives when I was 15, so even knew how to set the stuff up. I could have EASILY bought the gear either at LDS's by claiming I was buying it for other people, or I could have bought it offline. If I *really* want airfills, all you have to do is learn some lingo, engage the dive shop workers or owners in a conversation and then go "Oh, and could I get this tank filled?" So far, by the way, though I usually go to shops I know pretty well, I haven't been carded.

Yet, despite all this, instead of being an idiot and grabbing a reg and a tank and hopping into the nearest water source, I chose to get certified because I WANTED to be certified, not because I wanted to buy gear. I now have the training to handle situations that arise underwater and am interested in persuing that training further.

Idiots will kill themselves. Many certified divers still decide it's a good idea to go in caves and kill themselves. People try to create their own scuba gear after watching Sea Hunt and kill themselves. People try shaking vending machines and kill themselves. Checking certs is not going to keep people from acting stupid.

Is your standard of training so poor that the only thing it's good for is getting airfills? That would be pretty sad.

Ishie

 

[scubatoys]

Larry, I have been in business here at Scuba Toys and Schools Inc. since 1980. We have our own building and have a pool and classroom on site. We teach Basic though instructor and have Course Director on site. WE were among the first to sell nitrox and trimix, (in SoCal) and have had tech training since the med. 90’s. Our retail business is busy (and I will only sell the best equipment on the market).
This business has been and still is successful. The key to a successful Dive Store is good instruction, good gear, service, and expertise (being friendly to your customer helps and keeping a low overhead also helps).
To be truthful your Scuba Toys, diver.com, divers discount, and L pro don’t effect me.
But, that still doesn’t mean I think that what you are doing is ethical. As a 29 year active Padi instructor and a 24 year active Naui instructor your selling life support equipment to uncertified divers go’s against the grain. Why are we even bothering with certification programs, if every one can buy SCUBA? What you are doing and what the others are doing is wrong and unprofessional.
If you check your sales before they leave the store (you are smarter then most) but that’s not what is happening at your competitors.
If most of your business is from the disenfranchised that’s fine to, if the LDS isn’t giving service, then they deserve to lose the sale. But, you have to admit you are still “cherry picking” on price (you’re the reason I stopped selling Zeagle).
I don’t think your business model will last (the dive community needs the LDS, it doesn’t need internet based businesses). I guess we will see.

Firewalker

Firewalker... Just want to comment on a few things you said here.. You said: "Our retail business is busy (and I will only sell the best equipment on the market)." and "But, you have to admit you are still “cherry picking” on price (you’re the reason I stopped selling Zeagle)."

Isn't this a contradiction?? Was Zeagle the best when you were selling it, and now it's not because we are?

I appreciate some of the things you had to say about our business... and I think we both agree that if a local shop does a good job of inventory, training, customer service, they can be successful. We are not just an "internet" site. Everyone pictures a warehouse in the middle of nowhere when they think "internet dive shop". Hit our Store Web Cam and you will see we are an actual dive shop. You can pan around and see there are some storage areas with shelves, but most our product is on the floor for divers to try, fit, touch. And not stuck in the middle of nowhere - we are located on I-35 in North Dallas (Carrollton actually... North Dallas burb...) one of the busiest highways in the area.

From that page there is a link to our Pool Cam and you can watch us teaching classes, or letting folks practice their skills most days.

Most of the guys answering the phones are instructors - and I tell all the guys... never BS a customer. If they ask a question and you don't know... don't lie, don't make up stories... send them to me. And I don't know all the answers - but I'll get it from the appropriate company.

So really, although your posts seemed like the biggest troll, it really seems our simulaties are more than just the name! Hey how often do you get that in your store?? Are you guys the same Scubatoys.com on the web??

The real only difference might be back to the basic question you posed... and reinterated in the last post: "selling life support equipment to uncertified divers go’s against the grain. Why are we even bothering with certification programs, if every one can buy SCUBA? What you are doing and what the others are doing is wrong and unprofessional."

In the good ole' days... (I've been diving for a while myself), I'd run into folks that dove that weren't certified. Today, almost never. If for no other reason - it's too much of a beating for a non certified person to get fills, go on trips, get on a boat etc. I really don't think there are a bunch of people who are investing in regs and BC's and dive computers so they can teach themselves how to dive - and go do it without certification. If someone wants to "check out diving on their own" they normally borrow gear from some "friend" or hit a pawn shop. I can't believe anyone ever ordered a thousand dollars worth of gear from us so they could skip getting certified.

I see a whole lot of the guy who lives in the middle of Idaho, and he's taking a class at the YMCA - closest store is 150 miles away and there he can choose between a lime green 8 year old BC or a yellow horse collar. Each with a $600 price tag. And the rental gear the Y has sucks... He wants to buy some quality equipment so he feels safe and enjoys his training. If that guy was on a trip to So. Cal and told you that story, you wouldn't sell him a BC??

I firmly believe what I'm doing is not "unprofessional". I'm a Naui Course director, I wrote the Computerized Table Tutor Software to help train divers. I'm definately an educational advocate - and in no way would I personally want to be a part of the move to eliminate or even lessen the level of training. That's actually why I switched to Naui, when Padi "watered down" their curriculum to allow in the 10 year olds. If my only goal was an easy buck - I would have embraced that... Great for sales, 10 year olds cannot fit most BC's and mom and dad love to spend money on their kids... but I feel more training, not less should be the norm.

I talk to customers every day. They call with lots of questions about gear, and I always ask their background, training, type of diving, etc to get a feel for what equipment will fit their needs. I've yet to talk to someone who said "I'm not certified, and not going to take a class and I just want to buy some stuff so I can teach myself." Actually, I have talked to a few... but for some silly reason, they are always looking for hookah rigs - thinking then certification would not be necessary. I go over a quick explaination of boyles law... air embolism... And then explain after their certified... a couple grand for a system like that is much more than getting a great setup of scuba gear.

And if this sounds like a line of bull I'm pedaling in defending my business model... feel free to call and ask for me. Or have some one else do it... and put me to the test on product knowledge, training questions, or advice for non divers.

I don't know if you'll be a DEMA, but it's just down the street for me - so I'm driving down and will be there Thursday, Friday, Sat... (can't make it Wednesday - I'm teaching a nitrox class that night.) If you want - I'd welcome a meeting and you can PM me, or give me a call and we can find a time to hook up. Or just look for me at DEMA... Unfortunately, I look just like my drawing.... I'd love to take the time to show you I actually do run a business that is not "wrong and unprofessional".

 

[Michael Schlink]

If you don't like the selling of scuba gear online, wait until "E" training hits the net, it's right around the corner.-M

 

[Potapko]

I think Larry rang the bell folks!
In our Lds's there are normally only salespeople. Not people qualified to give answers or advice. I was sold basic junk when I started my OWD course. I asked what mask, fins.... I should buy. I was told, oh, I don't know, this one is nice. Give me a break! I have gotten far more helpful information off of Scuba board than I have in my lds.

What is happening has been stated here extremely well. The industry is changing and the lds better keep up or be put out of business.

 

[MikeFerrara]

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works).

So? All these things are easily addressed by the owner. If not then they should buy from a dive shop.

Most of you feel it’s OK to sell life support equipment to uncertified divers (the only card they need is a gold card ).

No. The industry insists that you need a card to buy breathing gas but for that matter, in most places there's no law demanding certification to dive so even this practice can be argued.

And of course most of you feel that there is no ethic’s in business, only price.
You guys are very sad.

No. What's sad is the industry trying to tell me that I need a dive shop to replace a few o-rings and refusing to sell me parts and forcing me to shop where they want me to shop. Now that's unethical.

It doesn’t say much for this generation of divers.
A couple more things: The internet business model you all seem to love depends on the LDS. To stay in business they have to be able to cherry pick off the work of the LDS. LDS fight back by moving to lines that are not sold on the net (and putting pressure on the manufactures).

And the consumer fights back by moving to lines from manufacturers who will sell up parts. I don't need a dive shop for anything at all. I have all the tools including a compressor and a garage full of oxygfen and helium. Now, why do I want to drive 50 miles to a shop to pay double?

What you have to remember boys and girls is that the grass roots of diving starts at the LDS (that’s where the new divers are first introduced to life support equipment, most new divers buy what there instructor wears or suggest).

This is truely sad since so many instructors wear such messed up equipment. Aside from that though I don't care to subsidize the training and introduction of new divers. A dive shop (a good one that is) is great for a new diver. There's your market.

The internet business model (for scuba) is doomed and will die just like mail order did (ask Skin Diver Magazine). There is no way to replace the LDS with the internet.

Firewalker

The internet doesn't have to replace the dive shop...at least not for every one and the LDS is going to have to make it on the market that they have and I'm not part of it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

But, that still doesn’t mean I think that what you are doing is ethical. As a 29 year active Padi instructor and a 24 year active Naui instructor your selling life support equipment to uncertified divers go’s against the grain. Why are we even bothering with certification programs, if every one can buy SCUBA? What you are doing and what the others are doing is wrong and unprofessional.

Not true. There is nothing in your insurance policy, dealer agreements or agency standards that prevbent you from selling life support equipment to non-certified folks. You never answerd my question either. If my uncertified daughter came in and wanted to buy me a reg for my birthday would you sell it to her? If so why bother explaining to her how to use it when she isn't a diver?

Good question though..."Why are we even bothering with certification programs, if every one can buy SCUBA?" The answer should be because it's an advantageous way to learn diving. In reality it's because it's forced on divers. It's therefor just turned training into card selling.

If you check your sales before they leave the store (you are smarter then most) but that’s not what is happening at your competitors.
If most of your business is from the disenfranchised that’s fine to, if the LDS isn’t giving service, then they deserve to lose the sale. But, you have to admit you are still “cherry picking” on price (you’re the reason I stopped selling Zeagle).

Zeagle still regulates price but they have decided to allow online and mail order sales. BTW, when I had my store I was one who pressured them to let me expand my market.

Do you call this ethical....I mean...only working with manufacturers who help you commit something that's very much like extortion or something? I'd carve my own regs out of wood before I used an aqualung or scubapro product and that's because of what I know of their business practices. But you prefer them. That's ethics for you.

I don’t think your business model will last (the dive community needs the LDS, it doesn’t need internet based businesses). I guess we will see.

Firewalker

Yes we'll see. It's time that dive shops start looking to what divers want instead of being butt plugs to the big equipment manufacturers.

 

[RiverRat]

Yes we'll see. It's time that dive shops start looking to what divers want instead of being butt plugs to the big equipment manufacturers.

That says it all IMHO.

 

[Keysdrifter454]

but never would I buy Life Support Equipment(there is a big difference).

What's the big difference?

Specifically?

Why can I buy an AED on the internet, and not a dive lite?

Selling life support equipment on the net to “be quite frank” is unethical, it’s unethical from the stand point of dive instruction, unethical from a business stand point(I don’t know if there are really ethics in business, but there should be), and it’s unethical from the stand point of product safety.
When selling life support equipment to someone, the seller needs to sit up and evaluate the performance of the product (before they give it to the buyer). Then the seller needs to give the customer an orientation to how the product works. This is something that has to be done when selling life support equipment, and can’t be done on the net(the internet salesman are taking the money and running, with no thought to the safety of the divers or the safety of the product).

So you're willing to accept full responsibility for any product liability or mis-use if it's sold in your shop?

You're assuming competence in LDSs industry wide to be able to assess the level of expertise that I have when I walk into your shop to make a purchase?

Every dive shop employee that you've had since '75 is or was a certified expert in the recreational and technical scuba field?

You must pay some wicked salaries, not the minimum wage and shop privileges that almost every other LDS in the country compensates with.

The mail order (internet) sales, takes away sales that the LDS could have made. Very often the LDS has introduced the product to the customer and has done most of the work in selling the product. And then the mail order house cherry picks the sale. This of course is just part of business. But it weakens the LDS (and the industry as a whole).

Defend your position that it weakens the dive industry.

It's a bogus statement.

I'm sure it weakens your portfolio, but it's not my responsibility to pay your mortgage, or more realistically, to pay for your diving hobby.

It has caused a lost of expertise that has hurt the community in the last 10 years.
The very core of dive instruction is that we teach students how to use life support equipment. The student is certified in that use. When selling mail order or on the net there is no way to check for certification. Uncertified divers are being sold life support equipment on the net. This practice, under mines the whole concept of diving instruction as we know it.

I've never had anyone check my C-card while making a dive shop purchase, infrequently had it checked getting fills (including mix and ean100).

I've been in dive shops in Florida where some of the counterhelp (all suspiciously Barbie-like in appearance) didn't even dive.

Selling life support equipment on the net is unethical. It should not be supported by the dive community. It is harmful and maybe our undoing.

Fred and Ginger couldn't tap this fast.

How about supporting any or all of these outrageous claims (trolls...?).

 

[Keysdrifter454]

I don’t think your business model will last (the dive community needs the LDS, it doesn’t need internet based businesses). I guess we will see.

When people get smart enough to go in on a compressor as a group, or just buy their own, you'll be history.

I've been doing my own VIPs for 5 years (any idiot can, case in point).

LDS has nothing to do with the availability of instruction (cite university programs among others).

I doubt the numbers exist, but I'd be curious as to the number of active instructors who -own- a dive shop (as opposed to being affiliated with one).

My LDS, which is one of the best I've ever seen (pool, haskel, mix, multi-agency), has one in house instructor, and at least 10 affiliated types.

But the biggest reason I go there is my personal friendship (i.e., they have cold beer at all times), not because I can get deals there.

I was in 5 LDSs in two states this weekend, and only one impressed me, primarily because their shop pool was a quarry.

The rest had (****) poor inventory, advertised Coz trips, and had a generic catatonic buffoon behind the counter because owners don't work Sundays.