Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[Damselfish]

Ok, I'll bite.

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works).

I certainly expect a working product no matter where I buy something from. Internet/mail order doesn't mean a product _can't_ be checked out. It is good service for a dealer to check out what they are selling in cases where it's likely to be useful and makes return customers more likely by preventing problems. This is true of some other products not just scuba gear, and this is true internet or not. I accept this may not happen depending where I buy from and I should always check things out before jumping in the water. I also accept that if I buy over the net and something is messed up it's more trouble and time to get taken care of.

Most of you feel it’s OK to sell life support equipment to uncertified divers (the only card they need is a gold card ).

I was originally taught that the "gate" was getting fills and this makes sense to me. If I can't get a fill the rest of the equipment does me no good. Some mail order places ask for cert numbers for gear like BCs/regs and I think that is a dumb CYA thing. (I just bought a new BC at a LDS that didn't know me, they did not ask for a card. I must have just looked like I had a clue or something. They did not check out the BC and it turned out to be defective. I certainly wouldn't have expected new SP gear out of the box to fail either. They took care of things, but it took a really long time due to a comedy of errors on their end, probably longer than mail order would have taken. All this aside, they still seem like a very good LDS.)

If someone wants to buy me a new reg or whatever for my birthday, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to (aside from knowing the right thing to get.)

The internet business model (for scuba) is doomed and will die just like mail order did (ask Skin Diver Magazine).

Mail order didn't die, it just migrated to the net (and what does Skin Diver Magazine have to do with it?)

There is no way to replace the LDS with the internet.

Who says replace? It's just another channel. Choice is good. Maybe by making gear easier to get and more affordable, it gets more people in the game who will also buy more gear and training at their LDS. I think most people don't exclusively do one or the other.

 

[scububa]

<snip>I shop and some times buy on the net (books, camera’s, airline tickets, etc.) but never would I buy Life Support Equipment(there is a big difference).
Selling life support equipment on the net to “be quit frank” is unethical, <snip>.

Firewalker

Mainly that you don't sell books or cameras

 

[Kim]

Another question-

I live in Japan and don't have an LDS anywhere near me. Even if I buy from Tokyo I have to use the net to do it. An example of the price difference between Japan and the States was clearly seen in my recent purchase of a Suunto SK7 compass - from the States: $60, in Japan $160. What's ethics got to do with that? I'd be unethical to myself if I was too stupid not to see the difference!!!

 

[Derek S]

As far as the net model using the LDS to "cherry pick", I would actually say it's the opposite. I get calls every day from customers who said they get more information of my pages than they get at their local shop. And when they call up with a question about the advantages of a Spherical Seat, or do they need environmentally sealed regs... I can give them an informed answer. More informed than they get from their local dive shops. If the local dive shop is helpful, has stock, and helps the customer make informed buying decisions... I don't see that customer. 95% will buy from that shop. I see the ones where their shop treats them like dirt, has no inventory, and does not know how to give the customer the information and respect they deserve.

I couldn't agree more Larry. While my LDS started me down the path, I've learned more from my fellow divers (mostly online, a few local people) and you "evil internet sellers" (as you're referred to) about equipment than from anywhere else.

I don't want anyone on this board to think that I don't believe in supporting LDS'es, nothing is further from the truth. I do believe that they are the 'first tier' of scuba support for us divers (even if just for air fills), but many of them are dooming themselves to extinction by refusing to change their ways to meet the needs of today's divers.

By the same token, I don't feel that LDS'es need to gouge customers either. I routinely see 50%-100% markups on gear. For a $5 doodad it might be one thing, but when you're talking about $1500 for a Vytech + transmitter, something just isn't right. Neither is witholding information on regulators that have been known by the manufacturer as defective (notice I didn't say dangerous), yet still continue to sell them anyway.

I dunno. I guess it tannes my hide to think that my LDS thinks I'm so gullible as to not comparison shop. Hell, it was in fact THE EVIL INTERNET that brought me to their shop in the first place. I don't use phone books, I looked up diving instructors in the 'virtual' yellow pages online. So I guess this was a case of the egg coming before the chicken.

And just in case you're curious, yes Larry, this is the guy you spoke to from Rochester on Thursday evening. Thanks again for your help and I won't hesitate to call again if I need anything.

 

[Firefyter]

Not only is this guy a troll, he's not even very good at it.....

 

[Firewalker]

I feel as an internet seller, it is my position to respond to some of your charges. First off, you are correct, we do not sit up systems. We set up systems. Anyone buying a package from us, we assemble and test IP, breathing, leaks, etc all before it leaves our door. My instructions to my guys are "I'm heading out on a trip to half way around the world - and you need to set up my gear - I've got no backup. Make sure it works. Treat each set like you were handing it to me to go on my trip."

Now obviously there is the chance for a seat to fail on the next cycle, or a hose to leak 3 days later - but the same is true for any purchase. As far as information and service, I've had customers call me up to help them set the time on their Aeris dive computer. No problem. I can recite from memory which buttons you have to press to get to that menu - dive with one myself.

As far as selling gear to non-certified divers... I defy you to tell me how someone will hurt themselves with a dive computer, regulator, or BC if they don't have a full tank. I seriously doubt there is a shop in the country that won't sell a reg to a non diver that is Christmas shopping for their spouse.

Yes, there are ethics in business... and perhaps this will come as a surprise, but service, selection and service drives our business more than price. I have a large number of customers that are referrals because we treat our customers right.

You want ethics?? Today I got a call from a customer who bought 3 BCs from us. They have spent thousands in their local shop - but they did not carry the BCs they wanted so they ordered from us. They went to try out their regs, computers, etc they bought from their LDS and they told them for insurance reasons they had to "check out their BCs before they could use them in the pool." Low and behold - they "flunked" one of them saying there were no parts available for that model and it could never be serviced. Since it could not be serviced, their insurance company would not allow them to have it in the pool. All BS. I can get parts all day long. But I told the customer, no problem - you haven't used it. Shoot it back and we'll swap for any other BC you want - or give you a full refund.

Who was most ethical in handling this... the LDS or the online shop??



If you have not gotten used to change - you better give up on life. If the internet is a passing fad, why are you a member of an on line board. Business models will change. In less than a week, PADI is announcing (I've heard) a total on-line training portal. Take the class work on the net - then they already have their resort dives counting towards certification dives... This will put more pressure on the LDS than the number of regs I sell in a decade.

Skin Diver was doomed because they were stupid. Don't accept advertising from on-line shops if your core distribution is dive shops. Duh...

As far as the net model using the LDS to "cherry pick", I would actually say it's the opposite. I get calls every day from customers who said they get more information of my pages than they get at their local shop. And when they call up with a question about the advantages of a Spherical Seat, or do they need environmentally sealed regs... I can give them an informed answer. More informed than they get from their local dive shops. If the local dive shop is helpful, has stock, and helps the customer make informed buying decisions... I don't see that customer. 95% will buy from that shop. I see the ones where their shop treats them like dirt, has no inventory, and does not know how to give the customer the information and respect they deserve.

If you are in that boat... I understand your comments.

Larry, I have been in business here at Scuba Toys and Schools Inc. since 1980. We have our own building and have a pool and classroom on site. We teach Basic though instructor and have Course Director on site. WE were among the first to sell nitrox and trimix, (in SoCal) and have had tech training since the med. 90’s. Our retail business is busy (and I will only sell the best equipment on the market).
This business has been and still is successful. The key to a successful Dive Store is good instruction, good gear, service, and expertise (being friendly to your customer helps and keeping a low overhead also helps).
To be truthful your Scuba Toys, diver.com, divers discount, and L pro don’t effect me.
But, that still doesn’t mean I think that what you are doing is ethical. As a 29 year active Padi instructor and a 24 year active Naui instructor your selling life support equipment to uncertified divers go’s against the grain. Why are we even bothering with certification programs, if every one can buy SCUBA? What you are doing and what the others are doing is wrong and unprofessional.
If you check your sales before they leave the store (you are smarter then most) but that’s not what is happening at your competitors.
If most of your business is from the disenfranchised that’s fine to, if the LDS isn’t giving service, then they deserve to lose the sale. But, you have to admit you are still “cherry picking” on price (you’re the reason I stopped selling Zeagle).
I don’t think your business model will last (the dive community needs the LDS, it doesn’t need internet based businesses). I guess we will see.

Firewalker

 

[scubasean]

I don’t think your business model will last (the dive community needs the LDS, it doesn’t need internet based businesses). I guess we will see.

Firewalker

Cool...We have an LDS representative that believes that internet sales (scutabtoys, LP, etc) isn't hurting them, and the business model an internet retailer uses (who also has a store location, as I understand) will die off.

Frankly, I think the internet businesses (in one form, or another) are here to stay....

I hope that the manufacturers change their business models....

Viva la internet.... (!)

 

[Derek S]

What you are doing and what the others are doing is wrong and unprofessional.

Oh and gouging divers (mostly new ones who don't know better) for a 50%-100% mark-up like some LDS'es do is professional?

I've never claimed to be a marketing/math genius, but if I can get 'widget A' from store ABC for half the price regardless if they are a brick and mortar or an internet seller, where do you think I'm going to get it from?

Would you buy a Corvette from a local dealer for $100,000 because you'd be helping out a local owner (even if you knew fair market value for said car was only $45K) when you could get the car from a dealer in Texas for $50K? Same basic principle being used.

 

[RiverRat]

The dive shop business is a tough one. From what I've heard 90% of all sales are made to about 10% of new divers. Don't quote me on this. As I see it the only way LDS' make money on gear sales is to push the high profit stuff like regs, BC's and split fins to newly certified divers. And the industry "price fixing" among dealers is just plain wrong. $400.00 for my Apeks online (awhile back) or $700.00 in the LDS. For an extra $300.00 you'd better do more that show me a few regs. When I first got certified I was told a BP/W would just about kill me and I'd have to dive double steels to stay afloat. What a crock. Anyway, it was just another attempt at a big $ sale. But what about what "I" wanted? To make a long story short I bought a FredT BP and an Oxycheq wing and will NEVER look back. That was the best move I made. Not just purchase wise, but DIVER wise. I learned more about diving neutral/ buoyancy/weighting/trim etc. here on Scubaboard than in the LDS (not to take anything way from my instructor, an excellent teacher). So that just proves that the LDS doesn't always have the right information or have the diver's best interests in mind. As another example I just came back from a Dive Master introduction at the LDS. The part about "owning gear that the shop uses" left a bad taste in my mouth.
I've bought lots of stuff online but also spent quite a few bucks at the LDS on training, steel tanks, trips, you name it. The reasonable stuff I have no problem purchasing there. Now I can understand getting a crappy BC for pool work as the BP/W may not be the best for instruction. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna go out and buy splits fins, the same wetsuits the shop uses etc. etc. etc. just to LEARN something that I'M PAYING FOR! Give me a break. I'm not a damn billboard.

 

[ae3753]

I don’t think your business model will last (the dive community needs the LDS, it doesn’t need internet based businesses).

Actually, Larry has a great business model. He's an LDS that sells on the internet. Based on your thought process, Larry should be covered.

But personally, I feel that divers do need internet based businesses. Internet businesses has been a significant benefit to divers:

1. Provides divers choice of equipment. Through internet businesses, divers can purchase gear that their LDS do not sell. This not only applies to purchasing equipment from large manufacturers that aren't represented locally, but from small start-up companies like Deep Sea Supply and Jet Harness. Or even from individuals like FredT. Having this variety allows divers to get the right equipment for their diving needs.

2. Forces LDS to differentiate and improve. No longer can LDS rest on their heels, overcharge new divers on equipment, and offer poor customer service. Successful LDS are ones that understand the new economics and work to make themselves unique and to give a customer a reason to buy from them. Whether that's selling non-internet gear or offering great training, LDS have to work for their customers.

3. Allows divers' money to go further. I would venture that most divers are not multi-millionaires and that we work hard to support our diving addiction. As the result, being able to save money on gear is a great benefit. Besides getting the equivalent item for cheaper, it can also mean that we are now able to afford the "better" model. And it allows us to take that extra training class or go on that dive trip that we may not have been able to do.

Internet sales are here to stay.

btw, since you mentioned Zeagle, I purchased my DS-IV and Ranger from my LDS, even though I knew that Larry and Scubatoys was able to offer a better price.