Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[Scubaroo]

Well I guess I'm unethical. Which makes the authorised distributors selling gear to dive shops here in Oz at wholesale prices higher than US retail prices the ethical ones?

The internet is a fact of life - it's mere existance as an alternate sales channel doesn't make it unethical. Change your business model to take advantage of it.

For what it's worth, I don't ever recall selling an airfill to an uncertified diver over the internet.

 

[Firewalker]

we do the same thing only it is to motorcycle as well as dive shops.

also its kind of funny how he starts these post and then does not respond to them very often. heres his sign.

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works). Most of you feel it’s OK to sell life support equipment to uncertified divers (the only card they need is a gold card ). And of course most of you feel that there is no ethic’s in business, only price.
You guys are very sad. It doesn’t say much for this generation of divers.
A couple more things: The internet business model you all seem to love depends on the LDS. To stay in business they have to be able to cherry pick off the work of the LDS. LDS fight back by moving to lines that are not sold on the net (and putting pressure on the manufactures). What you have to remember boys and girls is that the grass roots of diving starts at the LDS (that’s where the new divers are first introduced to life support equipment, most new divers buy what there instructor wears or suggest). The internet business model (for scuba) is doomed and will die just like mail order did (ask Skin Diver Magazine). There is no way to replace the LDS with the internet.

Firewalker

 

[Kim]

Firewalker - are you prepared to match internet prices? If not - how much more expensive are you?

 

[CathyS]

Firewalker,

Just add the classic "just try to buy an air fill off the internet when your LDS goes out of business" and you will have covered just about every statement in the MANY LDS vs. internet threads I've seen even in my short time here on Scubaboard.

I personally would not buy my life support equipment online, but I understand why people do it and I'm glad they have the choice to do so. And if something goes wrong (SPG face blows off or whatever) right out of the box, do you think that the online seller will categorically refuse to make good on the bad equipment? You're being very silly.

Cathy

 

[boomx5]

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works). Most of you feel it’s OK to sell life support equipment to uncertified divers (the only card they need is a gold card ). And of course most of you feel that there is no ethic’s in business, only price.
You guys are very sad. It doesn’t say much for this generation of divers.
A couple more things: The internet business model you all seem to love depends on the LDS. To stay in business they have to be able to cherry pick off the work of the LDS. LDS fight back by moving to lines that are not sold on the net (and putting pressure on the manufactures). What you have to remember boys and girls is that the grass roots of diving starts at the LDS (that’s where the new divers are first introduced to life support equipment, most new divers buy what there instructor wears or suggest). The internet business model (for scuba) is doomed and will die just like mail order did (ask Skin Diver Magazine). There is no way to replace the LDS with the internet.

Firewalker

is it true that you don't believe in Nitrox?

 

[freediver]

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works).


Firewalker

My gosh man, you should be ticked off at your vendors, not the internet! Sounds like the average internet consumer has better new gear performance than you do!

 

[Xanthro]

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works). Most of you feel it’s OK to sell life support equipment to uncertified divers (the only card they need is a gold card ). And of course most of you feel that there is no ethic’s in business, only price.
You guys are very sad. It doesn’t say much for this generation of divers.
A couple more things: The internet business model you all seem to love depends on the LDS. To stay in business they have to be able to cherry pick off the work of the LDS. LDS fight back by moving to lines that are not sold on the net (and putting pressure on the manufactures). What you have to remember boys and girls is that the grass roots of diving starts at the LDS (that’s where the new divers are first introduced to life support equipment, most new divers buy what there instructor wears or suggest). The internet business model (for scuba) is doomed and will die just like mail order did (ask Skin Diver Magazine). There is no way to replace the LDS with the internet.

Firewalker

The only sad part is your rather lame attempts at argumentation.

Incorrectly restating the opinions of others and then refuting your own restated position is called a straw man argument, and it is the sign of a weak mind.

Most internet sellers check their equipment, contrary to your baseless statement. Plus, they treat defective equipment the same as a local dive shop does, if it is defective then return for a refund.

90% of the time I can't get any faster service on a item locally than I can via the internet. If my dive rite 6" SPG was broken, the LDS would have to order another from the manufactor. They don't keep them in stock.

Of course it is acceptable to sell equipment to an uncertified person. To even try to argue otherwise is beyond the pale.

Maybe the concept of gifts has never occured to you. My wife isn't certified, if she decides to buy me a Scuba related item she should be able to buy it.

Internet purchases are not inherently unethical. It's a different business model. I buy most of my equipment at the LDS, because they provide a service that I'm willing to pay for. For items where that service is not needed, I'll buy my items where I feel it best.

Based on your post I suspect you will not remain in business long.
First, you have a poor attitude, one which doesn't lend itself to face to face purchases.
Second, you confuse reality. Scuba related mail order business died because of the internet. Mail takes time. Internet transactions have a much reduced turn around time, the niche that mail order occupied, remote transactions, has been supplanted by a vastly superior competitor in that same niche, the fact you can't recognise this very salient fact means you have poor business understanding.

Personally, I find it unethical that someone would suggest, as you do, that it is perfectly ok to base the decision to buy life support equipment on what your instructor wears or suggests. Which as we know is often based on what is most profitably for the LDS and not what is safest or most appropriate for the individual in question.

I want my buying decisions to be based on the selection of gear that best fits my diving, not what my instructor wears.

Xanthro

 

[Ishie]

I know, I know... feeding the troll.

I've now found an LDS I like though some of their prices are such that I won't be buying specific items from them. My old LDS rented a regulator that fell apart at 20 feet. Fortunately, I was close, Jim was able to grab his octopus and breathe well off it, leaving me to pick up the broken reg pieces. We now both own our own regs. Got my Proton Ice new off Ebay. Works wonderfully! Now, it's hard to understand how an online retailer would cause a more potentially dangerous situation than the one we experienced due to the LDS.

For buying Life Support Equipment online, get real. I'm a certified EMT (now, all I need is a job...). You can buy ANYTHING for life support equipment online and through catalogs, and this is stuff designed to take someone who is ALREADY in trouble, and potentially help keep them alive, so trust in equipment is a must. From some of the same sites, you can also buy SWAT gear.

Online retailers do sell to uncertified people. Many dive shops I've seen actually don't check c-cards, and a few don't even really check for air fills if they've "seen you around". Additionally, if someone is buying a tank and reg to use without having obtained the training, it's that person's fault, not the retailer. The reg I bought offline clearly stated in the directions that you needed proper training to use it and the lack of this training could lead to death/injury.

I appreciate the LDS, though the prices at most of them are scary. Sports Chalet so far, has the best. Until I can get the same BC at an LDS that I can offline for somewhere approaching the same price (even 50 bucks or so is not something I mind, depending on the original price, but a 120 dollar discrepancy? I don't think so!), I'll be doing my major shopping online.

Ishie

 

[scubatoys]

So let’s sum it up. Most of you feel it OK to sell life support equipment that has not been checked out by the seller (buyer beware, Darwinism? Just so you know I have sit-up systems where the SPG face blow off, I have had Hp hoses blow on new systems, I have had 2nd stage free-flow, 1st stages with bad HP seats, BC inflator blow apart, self-inflate, or would not take air at all, RE values fail, etc, etc, all brand new right of the box, but according to most of you the seller has no responsibility to make sure the life support equipment he sells, works). Most of you feel it’s OK to sell life support equipment to uncertified divers (the only card they need is a gold card ). And of course most of you feel that there is no ethic’s in business, only price.

I feel as an internet seller, it is my position to respond to some of your charges. First off, you are correct, we do not sit up systems. We set up systems. Anyone buying a package from us, we assemble and test IP, breathing, leaks, etc all before it leaves our door. My instructions to my guys are "I'm heading out on a trip to half way around the world - and you need to set up my gear - I've got no backup. Make sure it works. Treat each set like you were handing it to me to go on my trip."

Now obviously there is the chance for a seat to fail on the next cycle, or a hose to leak 3 days later - but the same is true for any purchase. As far as information and service, I've had customers call me up to help them set the time on their Aeris dive computer. No problem. I can recite from memory which buttons you have to press to get to that menu - dive with one myself.

As far as selling gear to non-certified divers... I defy you to tell me how someone will hurt themselves with a dive computer, regulator, or BC if they don't have a full tank. I seriously doubt there is a shop in the country that won't sell a reg to a non diver that is Christmas shopping for their spouse.

Yes, there are ethics in business... and perhaps this will come as a surprise, but service, selection and service drives our business more than price. I have a large number of customers that are referrals because we treat our customers right.

You want ethics?? Today I got a call from a customer who bought 3 BCs from us. They have spent thousands in their local shop - but they did not carry the BCs they wanted so they ordered from us. They went to try out their regs, computers, etc they bought from their LDS and they told them for insurance reasons they had to "check out their BCs before they could use them in the pool." Low and behold - they "flunked" one of them saying there were no parts available for that model and it could never be serviced. Since it could not be serviced, their insurance company would not allow them to have it in the pool. All BS. I can get parts all day long. But I told the customer, no problem - you haven't used it. Shoot it back and we'll swap for any other BC you want - or give you a full refund.

Who was most ethical in handling this... the LDS or the online shop??

You guys are very sad. It doesn’t say much for this generation of divers.
A couple more things: The internet business model you all seem to love depends on the LDS. To stay in business they have to be able to cherry pick off the work of the LDS. LDS fight back by moving to lines that are not sold on the net (and putting pressure on the manufactures). What you have to remember boys and girls is that the grass roots of diving starts at the LDS (that’s where the new divers are first introduced to life support equipment, most new divers buy what there instructor wears or suggest). The internet business model (for scuba) is doomed and will die just like mail order did (ask Skin Diver Magazine). There is no way to replace the LDS with the internet.

Firewalker

If you have not gotten used to change - you better give up on life. If the internet is a passing fad, why are you a member of an on line board. Business models will change. In less than a week, PADI is announcing (I've heard) a total on-line training portal. Take the class work on the net - then they already have their resort dives counting towards certification dives... This will put more pressure on the LDS than the number of regs I sell in a decade.

Skin Diver was doomed because they were stupid. Don't accept advertising from on-line shops if your core distribution is dive shops. Duh...

As far as the net model using the LDS to "cherry pick", I would actually say it's the opposite. I get calls every day from customers who said they get more information of my pages than they get at their local shop. And when they call up with a question about the advantages of a Spherical Seat, or do they need environmentally sealed regs... I can give them an informed answer. More informed than they get from their local dive shops. If the local dive shop is helpful, has stock, and helps the customer make informed buying decisions... I don't see that customer. 95% will buy from that shop. I see the ones where their shop treats them like dirt, has no inventory, and does not know how to give the customer the information and respect they deserve.

If you are in that boat... I understand your comments.

 

[ShakaZulu]

You guys are funny.............listen to Larry, he's a wise man indeed.