Is selling Life Support Equipment on the Net Ethical ?

[MikeFerrara]

Firewalker, do you mean to say that if my non-diving daughter came in to buy me a reg for my birthday that you wouldn't sell it to her? or that it would make sense to explain to her how to use it? There is nothing in agency or insurance requirements that require a certification to buy anything but breathing gas.

A good dive shop can be a real help to the new or casual diver who needs you to set up their reg for them. The problem of course is finding a good one. I normally don't go into dive shops but a few months ago my wife and I were visiting some family in the Chicago area and we took an afternoon and a phone book and visited a bunch of dave shops. You wouldn't believe the crap I heard in the span of a few hours. I truely pitty any new diver who has to rely on ny of those shops to get started.

But then of course there's those of us who don't need you to set up or test our reg or explain how to use it. I don't have a dive shop within 50 miles and I don't need one...not for service, gas or anything else. Rather than use a whole Sat to drive 50 miles to pay WAY TO MUCH, I'd rather go online and click "add to cart".

I also resent the manufacturers trying to foce me to go to some one else for service when I don't want any one else touching my regs. A company who won't sell me parts won't be selling me a reg either.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

As has been pointed out so many times, in so many ways, on so many threads, the last words spoken by the LDS will be:

We've never done it that way before!

Adapt or die. Corporate Darwinism keeps business competitive.

 

[Rick Inman]

... a few months ago my wife and I were visiting some family in the Chicago area and we took an afternoon and a phone book and visited a bunch of dave shops.

Mike,
Wow. You really know how to show a lady a good time on the town!

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike,
Wow. You really know how to show a lady a good time on the town!

You don't know the half of it. LOL

Actually I'm pretty lucky. She doesn't care what we do for an afternoon of evening out as long as it's without kids or customers.

 

[kman458]

. I normally don't go into dive shops but a few months ago my wife and I were visiting some family in the Chicago area and we took an afternoon and a phone book and visited a bunch of dave shops. You wouldn't believe the crap I heard in the span of a few hours. I truely pitty any new diver who has to rely on ny of those shops to get started.

we do the same thing only it is to motorcycle as well as dive shops.

also its kind of funny how he starts these post and then does not respond to them very often. heres his sign.

 

[perpet1]

I have been in the dive business since 1975 (that’s when I took my ITC). Since then I have certified thousands of divers and sold millions of dollars of equipment. Most of my adult life has had to do with diving and diving safety.
My dive store has been in business now since 1978 (and we have made money every year).
The mail order business has been around since I first started diving in the late 60’s. Skin Diver Magazine had mail order ads in the back pages. The Internet is the same thing just a different bigger format(it was wrong in the late 60's and is wrong today).
I shop and some times buy on the net (books, camera’s, airline tickets, etc.) but never would I buy Life Support Equipment(there is a big difference).
Selling life support equipment on the net to “be quit frank” is unethical, it’s unethical from the stand point of dive instruction, unethical from a business stand point(I don’t know if there are really ethics in business, but there should be), and it’s unethical from the stand point of product safety.
When selling life support equipment to someone, the seller needs to sit up and evaluate the performance of the product (before they give it to the buyer). Then the seller needs to give the customer an orientation to how the product works. This is something that has to be done when selling life support equipment, and can’t be done on the net(the internet salesman are taking the money and running, with no thought to the safety of the divers or the safety of the product).
The mail order (internet) sales, takes away sales that the LDS could have made. Very often the LDS has introduced the product to the customer and has done most of the work in selling the product. And then the mail order house cherry picks the sale. This of course is just part of business. But it weakens the LDS (and the industry as a whole). It has caused a lost of expertise that has hurt the community in the last 10 years.
The very core of dive instruction is that we teach students how to use life support equipment. The student is certified in that use. When selling mail order or on the net there is no way to check for certification. Uncertified divers are being sold life support equipment on the net. This practice, under mines the whole concept of diving instruction as we know it.
Selling life support equipment on the net is unethical. It should not be supported by the dive community. It is harmful and maybe our undoing.

Firewalker

I was not going to reply but I could not help myself

Unethical???? NO!! Just because they kick your butt does not mean it is unethical. You can try all you want to justify it in your mind but just because the business model is more successful does not mean that it is unethical. You yourself point out that it is business.

Now if you argued the ethics of the equipment vendors that prevent the LDS from competing then you may have a valid arguement.

 

[lamont]

i know i'm responding to a troll, but what the hell...

fact of the matter is that nothing is going to stop this. internet businesses selling scuba products aren't going to go away. and you might scare some total newbies into not buying scuba equipment over the net, but more experienced people are going to make up their own minds.

the problem is that this flies in the face of the previous LDS business model which is to sell dirt cheap training and then pile on the profit from selling gear. gear prices have now become very competitive and LDSes are going to have to figure out how to make money some other way. they're going to have to figure out a value add.

really this is nothing more than the commoditization of a product. most scuba related products have become commoditized and their margins are getting squeezed. the other market to get into and make money is high-end, high-margin specialized products. its just like the difference in the markets of a $40 ethernet NIC card and a $100,000 ethernet core router. most LDSes are finding themselves on the $40 ethernet NIC end of the spectrum and their margins are getting squeezed.

 

[Knavey]

Don't we just LOVE trolls? Even enough to reply!

The unethical tact is the best one in a little while though. So lets see what life support equipment can be found on line...

Every type of sife support equipment known to man can be found online.

Prescription drugs.

Emergency Generators.

Car brakes.

Parachute cord.

Hire a nurse.

Books on healthy living.

Guns.

Airplanes.

Submarines

Need I go on? Bogus argument. Troll, I give it...2 thumbs down, but at least he tried.

 

[scubafool]

The mail order (internet) sales, takes away sales that the LDS could have made. Very often the LDS has introduced the product to the customer and has done most of the work in selling the product. And then the mail order house cherry picks the sale. This of course is just part of business. But it weakens the LDS (and the industry as a whole). It has caused a lost of expertise that has hurt the community in the last 10 years.
The very core of dive instruction is that we teach students how to use life support equipment. The student is certified in that use. When selling mail order or on the net there is no way to check for certification. Uncertified divers are being sold life support equipment on the net. This practice, under mines the whole concept of diving instruction as we know it.
Selling life support equipment on the net is unethical. It should not be supported by the dive community. It is harmful and maybe our undoing.

Firewalker

My opinion on this little snippet is this. If the mainstream dive industry would stop allowing, facilitating, & condoning the crap that is called instruction and would start to push their instructors to actually teach their students how to dive, the prices for the classes would start to go up. Then the shop owners could start charging a fair price for the courses, and they wouldn't have to try to make such a large percentage of their profit on gear.

I supported my instructor & his shop without fail right up to the point that I realized how poorly I was trained. Now I just look for someone who is honest with me.

My last big dive equipment purchase was done over the 'net (thanks, Chris from COVCI). I didn't have someone try to sell me their most expensive model, no one tried to talk me into something that they stocked when I really wanted something else. I ordered what I wanted, when I didn't get it right away I called them, they told me what the problem was & apologized, and in the end I got MOST of their "package" at a price that was MINUS the normal retail of the individual part that they didn't have. I actaully ended up saving money by buying that one component somewhere else.

If the average LDS would strive to find a way to stay in business doing things THAT way, I betcha' we would beat a path to their door.

 

[asmith5]

I have only read a few posts on this thread, but I am going to respond anyway. As a new diver, every single piece of equipment I have is a life support device. If I buy a BCD, weight belt, regulator, wet or dry suit, etc. on the web, I see no ethical problems with it. Any person who is certified to dive will know how these things work. I don't see how the sales of these types of equipment are unethical. If you are talking about medical equipment that would be used to save a divers life, the please specify and give me an example of an online store that sells that equipment.

Andrew