Is it time to sink the CESA?

[String]

Ascent speed isnt what screws my ears - its the process of descending to 6m, ascending to the surface and repeating numerous times in a very short space of time that does my ears in.

Computer isnt a problem - i leave it clipped off to the bottom of the line until ive finished this particular dangerous piece of dinosaur diving so it doesnt bend or give me a ceiling.

 

[Interceptor121]

And without a computer how do you monitor the ascent rate to make sure the student is not exposed to risks of lung over-expansion and does not exceed the recommended rate?
I think one thing is the safety of the instructor and the other is that of the student.
In terms of knowing how to do a CESA I would think it is useful. That a beginner diver would actually have the coolness to even consider that an option is another problem.
In the spirit of leaving all self rescue skills in the OW class and the others in the rescue course PADI is keeping this.
In terms of protecting the instructor health you can do it at 6 meters and make the students ascent at 10-12 meters per minute however it is likely that in this case you will need to do it several times as it takes 30 seconds and the average person in stress condition may not manage it, which in turn means multiple ascent and descents in a short space and therefore chance or ear problems
In real terms is someone really going to do a CESA on the last breath of the tank? It would be ludicrous to think that a person can make such a quick decision at that time and still ascent in one exhalation.

 

[Scubadam]

I totally agree with you, PADI should get rid of the vertical CESA, if you have to perform horizontally in a confined water dive. This is the same problem PADI has with their approach on "hovering", bouancy control. SSI, Cmas America, NAUI don't make you hover to get certified, but PADI does.

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't get the ear thing. Let's make it as bad as possible, let's say that you have 6 students on boat, one at a time they enter, swim to you on the surface, you descend together to 20 feet, the student does a CESA with you by his or her side, and then returns to the boat, you repeat this for each of the six students. That's a total of six down and ups, SIX! My ears get more workout than that in the first half hour of going out freediving ... way more! Do people have bad ears? Do Instructors not know how to keep a slight positive pressure in their ear during the entire descent? What is the root of this problem? I've never experienced it (except when diving with a slight cold) and I can't say that any of my staff ever complained of it, despite two, three maybe four times more down and ups (to 13 ft.) in a typical pool session.

Ascent rate is rather easy, 60 fpm is 5 feet on your depth gauge and five seconds on your watch; 30 fpm is 5 feet on you depth gauge and 10 seconds on your watch.

 

[String]

And without a computer how do you monitor the ascent rate to make sure the student is not exposed to risks of lung over-expansion and does not exceed the recommended rate?

The same way anyone else would do it without a computer - with a timing device that counts in seconds. Or even in head and using eyes.

Please dont say you think computers are 100% essential and are the only way to measure ascent rates because if you do that's a very dangerous idea - computers can break. Divers should be able to ascend at a given rate without a pretty little bar graph to help them. Anyone with a fair number of dives under their belt should be able to judge a safe ascent rate just from references and ears if nothing else.

In real terms is someone really going to do a CESA on the last breath of the tank? It would be ludicrous to think that a person can make such a quick decision at that time and still ascent in one exhalation.

Of course not. They're going to try to breathe in, get the click from the reg and nothing so bolt to the surface rapidly with no air in lungs.

 

[dwhthediver]

I thnk the CESA is an important self rescue skill that is taught to OW dive students, if taught properly, and evaluated to standards, then oral inflation is done at the surface, the ascent rate is controlled to a rate that is safe. taught properly, starting in the pool, I have them "zzzz" with their head out of the water, then again sitting in shallow water, then and only then have them do the CESA horizontally in the pool deep end. That way, they are not over stressed having to do it in open water, with my leg on the rope watching their ascent rate, they have proven to themselves 3 times that they can do it, and just have to experience this important self rescue technique for themselves in open water. I also stress the importance of consistently monitoring your gauges and making sure that you plan your dives or call a dive to be at the surface with 500 psi left in the tank. I know that it can be hard on an instructor IF they haven't properly prepared their students to do the CESA to where the students aren't comfortable doing so. I do it on dive 4, which the 1st dive of their second open water dives, and have never experienced any ear issues from it.

 

[Thalassamania]

... obviously ditching the weights is not an option...

Why not? In a full flare I can easily keep my ascent rate under 60 fpm.

Ascent speed isnt what screws my ears - its the process of descending to 6m, ascending to the surface and repeating numerous times in a very short space of time that does my ears in.

I'm not trying to be snide (or to teach my grandma to suck eggs, so to speak), but how careful are you with your ears? Do you keep slight positive pressure in them on each and every descent? I find with that approach I have no problems making dozens of downs and ups in a row, day, after day, after day, and my staff has always had the same experience.

... have never experienced any ear issues from it.

How do you handle your equalization?

 

[boulderjohn]

I believe it is essential teach CESA, and I believe the vertical performance on the OW dives is important for that. However, I have a lot of trouble with the way we do the horizontal version of it in the pool.

For those of you who suggest "bring your question to PADI," I did that. About two years ago I had an extensive exchange about this. They did not change my mind, and I did not change theirs.

I was a part-time athletic coach in a number of sports for about a quarter century, and one of the most important things I learned during that time is to make your practice "gamelike." Many athletic coaches actually harm player performance by having them practice skills differently from the way they are performed in the game, thus ingraining poor habits. (If any of you coaches out there want examples, PM me.) We do the same thing with some of what we do when we teach CESA.

First of all, by having them do it horizontally in the pool, we teach them a different need for a rate of exhale than they will have ascending vertically from depth. To cover 30 feet while exhaling, students have to limit their exhale severely. This teaches them this is a really hard thing to do, when in reality it is much easier in to do vertically because of the expanding air. While you might think that is good, we have planted a "this is really hard" notion in their mind that might re-emerge when it is time to use it for real, leading them to do what you don't want them to do--hold their breath.

Now let me combine two other non-gamelike things we have to teach, both of which have been mentioned in this thread.

• First, we make sure they have full lungs before they start.
• Next, we fail them if they have to take a breath before they are done.

The full breath one should be obvious, but many people do not realize one of the reasons why it should not be an issue. If you have exhaled all your air, there is still enough oxygen in your blood to get you safely to the surface without inhaling. You will have a monstrous urge to breathe when you get there, but if you understand that and don't do something stupid, you will get there.

You have to give it some thought to realize why the second one is non-gamelike. What would happen in the real world if the ascending diver did not have a full breath and had such an urge to breathe? He or she would try to inhale, and what would happen then? Well, assuming the diver had properly retained the regulator, he or she would get some air! The tank was not empty--it just did not have enough air to deliver it at ambient pressure. Once the diver has ascended, air will be available.

Thus, inhaling at that point would be the proper thing to do, but we fail the student who does it. Once more, we teach a diver who is someday in that position that he or she cannot make it if they don't have enough air, making it more likely that the breath will be held.

 

[dwhthediver]

How do you handle your equalization?

Valsalva, early and often on every descent, and swallow alot on way up to make sure no reverse squeeze

 

[boulderjohn]

I would also like to point out that in the PADI course, the CESA is a dive flexible skill, meaning it can be done on any of dives 2, 3, or 4. If you have a large number of students, you can divide them up among the three dives so that you are not doing so many ascents. That is the reason it is a dive flexible skill.