Is a group leader (DM) usually expected on a boat?

[cornfed]

If someone hasn't been diving in a few (or a lot) of years, they shouldn't be able to just walk in, rent some gear and walk off the side of a boat.

I agree but I don't think certification renewal is the right way to go about it. Your plan will keep a portion of people out of the water while annoying the rest the diving population.

I don't believe it will be as simple and pain free process. First of all, it's going to cost something. There is no way PADI, SSI, NAUI or any other agency could get their instructors to support this without letting them charge for their time. Even if they did the agencies would need some fee to handle processing all the renewals. I paid good money for all the training I've gotten. I've also paid a lot of money for fills and quarry passes to make sure my skills are sharp. I'm not going to pay any more just so someone can watch me do some simple skills and process some paper work.

Keeping people who have dove in several years from renting gear or jumping off a boat should be done at the shop they try to rent from or the boat they try to board. If you want to check log books or ask questions I'm all for it. I'm not sure I would support doing checkout dives but I don't see a problem with not letting someone sign up for the most challenging dive offered if they can't provide some reasonable proof of experience or they've been on a simplier dive with you. If you run a boat or book charters, it's your call. Sure people can forge log books, but frankly I think anyone who does and gets in trouble got what they had coming to them.

One group of divers I would be in favor of requiring recerts for are dive professionals. They've accepted an additional level of responsibility by seeking leadership training. Divers, especially espiring divers, put they trust in someone to teach them and that person should be held to a higher standard. Just don't burden the average diver with unnecessary requirements when there are other ways to achieve the same goal.

 

[friscuba]

I don't believe it will be as simple and pain free process. First of all, it's going to cost something. There is no way PADI, SSI, NAUI or any other agency could get their instructors to support this without letting them charge for their time. Even if they did the agencies would need some fee to handle processing all the renewals. I paid good money for all the training I've gotten. I've also paid a lot of money for fills and quarry passes to make sure my skills are sharp. I'm not going to pay any more just so someone can watch me do some simple skills and process some paper work.

One group of divers I would be in favor of requiring recerts for are dive professionals. They've accepted an additional level of responsibility by seeking leadership training. Divers, especially espiring divers, put they trust in someone to teach them and that person should be held to a higher standard. Just don't burden the average diver with unnecessary requirements when there are other ways to achieve the same goal.

I would think that if they made a mandatory renewal, say every 3-5 years, you'd have enough economy of scale that dive shops could offer a regularly scheduled or frequently scheduled inexpensive renewal evening. You may not want to pay an extra dime, but would 25-30 bucks every few years really remove serious divers from diving?

Lot's of divers don't take up diving again simply because it's been a few years and they can't find a ready refresher and don't want to take the course over, with a mandatory renewal the post certification refresher/renewals would be more readily available and you may actually see more people stick with it.

Smart shops will try to combine in some kind of deals or offer to divers coming in for their renewals that would likely cover or more than cover the cost of renewal. It doesn't have to be big bad and expensive.

I do agree that instructors also should go through mandatory refreshers, probably even (gasp) physical tests to make sure they're at a minimum fitness level.

A good portion of both "professionals" and the general diving population likely could use a little push at times when it comes to keeping current.

later,

 

[Walter]

Walter, would you define/contrast live boating vs. drift diving for me?

A quick search found this.

 

[rickydazla]

I have overseen the operation of several resort facilities in Fiji and I would never let any certified diver (yes, any) in the water without a guide. The diving here is easy - clear, warm water with little surface chop and minimal current. It's more a value-added service than a safety concern, although that is clearly a benefit too.

- We choose our sites for a reason and we like to make sure that people see whatever it is that's there, rather than dropping off the edge of the reef to 50m and seeing nothing but coral rubble.
- People come looking for big tings and miss the little stuff that is ultimately more photogenic.
- There are creatures endemic to Fiji that are worth pointing out.

When you go somwhere of historical interest you would buy a pamphlet or guide book at least and the best places have someone to escort you around. Same applies on a reef in my opinion. All are different and all have their own histories and stories. Someone who dives the same reefs day in day out has an intimate knowledge and can share that with you and it makes it so much more than just looking at fish.

We make every effort to ensure that buddy teams are matched and that no group size exceeds 4 + guide (be it an instructor, dm, rescue diver or even a good local ow guide). I have NEVER had anyone complain AFTER the dive, although I have had several people whinge about autonomy blah blah wank wank prior and it was usually the complainers that were the biggest liability.

It also gives me peace of mind to know that one or more of my staff is with the guests in the event of an event and that they will respond in a manner expected depending upon their level of training.

 

[Walter]

I have overseen the operation of several resort facilities in Fiji and I would never let any certified diver (yes, any) in the water without a guide.

Then I would not dive with your operation.

It's more a value-added service than a safety concern, although that is clearly a benefit too.

I see it in exactly the opposite manner.

Someone who dives the same reefs day in day out has an intimate knowledge and can share that with you and it makes it so much more than just looking at fish.

You'll see things I miss, but I'll see things you miss.

It also gives me peace of mind to know that one or more of my staff is with the guests in the event of an event

I'm not paying you for your piece of mind. I'm paying you for a boat ride to and from the reef. I don't mind you offering a guide, just like I don't mind you offering to set up my gear. I'll politely decline both offers.

 

[Damselfish]

You'll see things I miss, but I'll see things you miss.

and, the things I find on my own are more rewarding to me than the ones someone finds for me.

 

[Walter]

Exactly.

 

[cornfed]

I would think that if they made a mandatory renewal, say every 3-5 years, you'd have enough economy of scale that dive shops could offer a regularly scheduled or frequently scheduled inexpensive renewal evening. You may not want to pay an extra dime, but would 25-30 bucks every few years really remove serious divers from diving?

It's not going to push serious divers out but why impose an additional burden when the industry already had a methodology for dealing with this? Is it not a industry consensus standard to check c-cards and log books before letting someone to sign up? Is it enforced? Not really but why not try to fix that problem before coming up with a different solution? I couldn't find anything about logbooks or prior experience on your site. I don't mean to be a jerk but it bothers me when dive operators suggest additional requirements which (in my opinion) make their lives easier at my expense.

Smart shops will try to combine in some kind of deals or offer to divers coming in for their renewals that would likely cover or more than cover the cost of renewal. It doesn't have to be big bad and expensive.

I know it's popular on SB to criticize dive shop and that's not my intention. That said, I put up with a lot of BS from the shops around here so. The only place within an hour of me that fills nitrox does PP blending but they can't clean my tanks so I take them to a different shop. But that shop can't fill them so I have to take them back (bone dry empty) to the first shop and deal with crap about where I got them cleaned, why they don't have any gas in them, etc. Even then I have trouble getting fills if I need nitrox on back to back weekends because they shop can't guarantee that they can fill the tanks within 5 business days. Sorry, but given what I put up with to dive on a regular basis I don't see any type of renewal process going smoothly.

 

[rickydazla]

and, the things I find on my own are more rewarding to me than the ones someone finds for me.

We do not excort divers round with a cattle prod! Self discovery is absolutely encouraged. But people usually like it when they discover something new themselves, show the guide and tap their head (our signal "remember that"), come back to the boat and have the guide tell them all about it, including how they would serve it for dinner back in the village!

Walter, that's a real shame as you are one of the people on this board that I would absolutely love to take diving in Fiji. I promise I would show you some really cool **** and you could set your own gear up on every dive!

 

[Walter]

I'd love to go to Fiji and I'd love to dive with you as a buddy, but not as a guide.