IP creep/lockup check

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hudson

Contributor
Messages
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Location
St. Louis, MO
# of dives
200 - 499
My MK2 and MK17 have both started showing a similar pattern of IP creep...I'm wondering what it says about the condition of the seat, or if it could be other issues... both regs are fairly new, about 1.5 years old, with ~90 dives on the MK17 and maybe half that on the Mk2+. At 3000psi, after a breath, the IP recovers from about 125psi to 135psi, then slowly creeps up to 140 psi (~30 seconds for the MK2, ~1 minute for the MK17), then even more slowly creeps up to 145psi (~1.5 minutes for the MK2, 3+ for the MK17) at which point it locks. Both lock up at 145psi upon initial pressurization, it's just the recovery that's slow.

Is this just normal seat wear? At what point should I be concerned and put in a new seat? Now?
 
I wouldn't worry a whole lot about IP creeping up to 145. I don't remember what the creeping limit is on Scubapro's first stages, but 145 is at the high end of what's considered normal IP among regulators in general, so I think you're ok there.

Now if the IP continues to creep beyond 150 or so, you have a problem.
 
Does the second stage start to freeflow, if so it is not really stopping at 145 psi,it is just bleeding off.
 
The initial swing is one thing, but IP creep is another. A 10-20 psi initial swing is normal, but once it stops, there should be virtually no creep. If any is present, it should be less than 5 psi in about the first 5-10 seconds with none after that.

The Mk 20 with the mid production brass tipped piston is the major exception in terms of Scubapro first stages in that a 5 psi creep after initial lock up is normal. But they also tend to have problems locking up at all after a while in service so I almost always replace the piston with a new knife edged Mk 25 piston.

That behavior in a Mk 17 that is about 90 dives post service is however not outside the realm of the normal. A 5 to 10 psi creep over a few minutes is something I have found in my Mk 17's about the time they are due for service (usually around 100-130 dives in my case.) And the same pattern is common for many regs. The problem is that this type of slow and controlled creep usually precedes a much larger and faster creep that will not lock up at 145 ps and it can usually be expected to occur at some point in the not too distant future. Your Mk 17 is in effect telling you it is time to be serviced. You can ignore it, but the possible consequence will be a free flowing second stage and murphy's law dictates that will happen on dive one of day one of your next really expensive dive trip.

Age in and of itself does not mean anything as the seat is off the orifice when any first stage is depressuirized so they have have a very long post service shelf life. It is the actual use in diving that causes the wear through both the number of cycles and the contaminants (rust, aluminum oxide, sand, salt, carbon, etc.) that end up going through them. Modern lubricants are very good so most non-seat related wear comes from contaminants that enter the reg either in the breathing gas or in the rinse process and in a dirty reg, the seat wear can also be greatly accellerated by rust, salt or carbon particles that end up embedded in the seat. Clean gas iis one thing, but it is amazing how m8uch crud can end up in the average rental tank, so if rental tanks are involved it is not uncommon for a diver's reg to end up needing service sooner than those of a diver who owns his or her own very well maintained tanks.

In any event, with your Mk 17 part of the issue is probably normal seat wear but part of it is also probably also dirt/salt and lubrication issues and both will accellerate the wear that is occurring.

A Mk 2 that is not locking up after only 50 or so dives is a little odd as they are normally pretty bullet proof so I would tend to suspect contamination by rust carbon or salt on the seat that is interfering with a solid seal.
 
Scubapro apparently specifies no creep with a new seat that's been broken in, whatever that means. My experience is that my MK2 never creeps, MK5s almost never, MK10s creep a little if they haven't been used in several months, and the MK15 never creeps. I've rebuilt a few MK20s and they creeped quite a bit (10 psi) until I put in the MK25 composite piston after which they were perfect. I've rebuilt one MK18, (same poppet/seat as your MK17 I think) and it did creep a little both before and after the rebuild. So the creeping, while not officially acknowledged by SP, does happen and apparently the regs still work fine.

If I read your post correctly, your regs are creeping 5psi in about a minute, 10psi in 3 minutes? I've seen SP regs creep that much and work fine, but it is annoying to me. I'd also start to worry that the creep might get much worse at a really bad time. If they were mine, I'd start by leaving one pressurized for several hours while I was around to see what happens over a longer time. I also might drop the IP in the MK17 to see if it will easily lock up at 135. The MK2 is better off at the upper end of the IP range with a full tank.
 
SP changed the seat and orifice design from the Mk 16 to the Mk 17 and retrofits the new seat and metal orifice of the Mk 17 into older Mk 16's and Mk 18's at annual service. That resolves the lockup issues that were common in the Mk 16 seat/orifice design.

Consequently, an updated Mk 16 or Mk 18 (and the Mk 17) should have a very stable IP once the initial lockup occurs. Again, I do occasionally observe 5 psi or so of creep in mine late in the season around 100 dives or so and that is usually when I just go ahead and rebuild them. They may or may not be just fine going longer before the symptom becomes problematic, but I am personally opposed to potentially being a quarter mile back in a cave when it decides it is time to no longer be fine any more.

Practically speaking it is very common for new seats to experience 5-7 psi of creep until they are broken in a bit at which point they display virtually no creep. From time to time, I encounter a first stage that upon being rebuilt will have creep in the 5-7 psi range. But if I leave it pressurized for a few hours and retest it, it almost always will exhibit zero creep. If creep is still present I will switch the seat and if the problem still exists after a second seat is tried, I will replace the piston or orifice.
 
Thanks DA, matt.. I left them pressurized for a few, MK2+ eventually stops at 150psi, MK17 stays at 145psi, but still initial post-breath swing is 125 to 135 followed by a 10psi slow creep. I'll take care of them once my MK17 kit comes in.
 
Hudson,
SB staff member, DA Aquamaster has been right on the money all day long, not just with yous situation but, with another member this morning also looking for information. If you follow his advice, you won't go wrong.

My hat off to you DA Aquamaster!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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