In what position were you taught to perform dive skills?

How were you taught to perform dive skills?

  • On my knees (but upright)

    Votes: 95 82.6%
  • In a "fin pivot" position (horizontal but in contact with the ground)

    Votes: 6 5.2%
  • Midwater, in horizontal trim

    Votes: 14 12.2%

  • Total voters
    115

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No. ... knees I get. I don't think it should be taught that way any more, but I understand it. Standing I simply do NOT get

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No. ... knees I get. I don't think it should be taught that way any more, but I understand it. Standing I simply do NOT get

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Not that I am in favor, but just explaining:

Standing allows people to be in a position they are used to with the head and the feet making the C shape people have spent their lives in when doing anything at all.

Teaching OW is a balancing act of getting people comfortable enough to learn, and getting them used to the whole range of new and different.

A weird 'benefit' of standing is that forward stability is pretty good since the length of the fin keeps people from pitching forward. SO they can do the Michael Jackson lean pretty far forward. Of course not leaving people free to lose stability keeps them from learning in the end, but for many instructors and situations, management and control concerns trump teaching.
 
I was taught Scuba twice, well sort of. In the first instance, the instructor was never with us in the water (1969) and the only real skill we learned was to not die. When I actually got certified back in '98 or '99, I was taught by a caver who complained about the fact that we did some skills on our knees. I was taught to pull and glide whenever practical and hands on the bottom were accepted but knees not so much. Now, my mantra during classes I teach are "You're not a boat and you're not an anchor: you're a fish." This is where art imitates life, and we try to be as fishy neutral as possible.

From the moment someone takes an interest in learning Scuba from me, I point out that I teach differently than the vast majority of instructors. Rather than teaching from the bottom up, I teach from the top down and everything is done while being neutral. I've had instructors think I was teaching advanced open water and even a cave class when they saw my students in the pool and even in open water. I've even been called a liar and a charlatan right here on ScubaBoard for contending that all skills (even scuba doff and don) should be done mid water. While I love the comments, they tend to inflate my ego and I value humility even more than I value being neutral. I also find it hard to not judge other instructors when I see their classes kneel. I do. I see it all the time down here in Key Largo. I try to keep an open mind and keep telling myself that just because I don't teach one way, doesn't make their way wrong. Unfortunately, I find myself pointing out the kneelers to my students and friends and shaking my head. On one hand, I don't want to be a snob but on the other hand, I rather enjoy it. :D

I was taught to make my students kneel in my NAUI ITC back in 2001. They were to have both knees on the bottom and I was to have one knee and one fin. This was all couched in terms of being in control of your class at all times. A noble sentiment which unfortunately churns up a lot of the local sediments. When I first started to reject the premise that students should be taught on their knees, maintaining control was paramount in my mind. However, I found that teaching the skill of being neutral also gave my student all the control they needed. It also gave them confidence and accelerated their learning curve when it came to being balanced and trim. I first taught them to do their skills on their knees and then again, while neutral. Even in OW, I had them kneel to demonstrate and then they had to do it mid water as well. I remember teaching a class at Alexander Springs on a Saturday. I had a class of seven, and the park already had seven or eight classes being taught there that day. When we got into the spring, I couldn't find any underwater real estate that wasn't already covered in kneelers. So, in a departure from how I had been teaching, I had them do all their skills mid water, just above the other classes. I saw a lot of confused instructors that day. No, I hadn't quite figured out how to do the doff and don neutrally at that time, so that was fun, fun, fun to watch. I had one student hit the bottom and the others kind of flailed away until they got it back on and somehow managed to avoid kicking the classes below them. The discussions with a couple of the instructors there that day were priceless. One clearly thought I had violated standards for AOW. When I pointed out that it was actually an OW class he was really upset. He was going to report me to NAUI and all that. Yeah, I value humility but this was fun if not a bit ego building. I had really stirred the pot by not teaching in the traditional manner. I still see a lot of that here on ScubaBoard as we discuss the pros and cons of going full neutral. Some instructors maintain that we are violating standards by teaching responsibly. It's kind of funny and kind of sad. Here's a good read on it: ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network - How a Small Group of Instructors Spurred Reform in Scuba Instruction

Here's the bottom, er, mid water line. Teaching evolves and great instructors learn from that evolution. No, Scuba instruction is not the same it used to be back in the day. I am happy about that! Some want to call it "dumbing down", but I don't see it that way. Evolution has a way of making many tasks easier to do and some people erroneously equate hard with being better. No, it's just harder and often counter productive. I remember the first set of fins I bought from a little shop in Orlando back in 1969. The biggest selling point was that I could kick the crap out of the reef without doing any harm to the fin. Wow. Matter of fact, I still own those fins and they do not look beat up. :D With the current focus on the environment, I doubt that I would hear that benefit given in any LDS today. Some, if not most of the changes in this industry are good! As one ScubaBoarder put it: Here's to snobbish amounts of trim and neutral buoyancy. May your fins look ever new!
 
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boulderjohn: Thanks for your answer. I was about to say that there was an article posted fairly recently that addressed most of this, and that I THOUGHT you had written it. NetDoc's post is that article, and indeed you did write it. It's threads and articles like that that really got me interested in WHY and HOW MANY instructors/students teach/learned on their knees.

---------- Post added August 2nd, 2013 at 07:56 AM ----------

Not that I am in favor, but just explaining:.....

Thanks for your post. I had thought of the stability factor (MJ lean) but I don't think that's enough of a reason to teach standing. Comfort due to familiarity, I might understand. However, when being taught scuba dive....you should be taught how to dive, not how to perform random dive skills while standing. If you're standing, and you're NOT a commercial diver, you're doing something wrong. If you're so uncomfortable underwater that you have to be standing up to be able to keep your cool to do skills, you probably shouldn't be in the water.

I know you were just explaining, and I appreciate it as I was unsure if I missed anything.

---------- Post added August 2nd, 2013 at 08:55 AM ----------

NetDoc: How much harder was it for you to train your students in horizontal trim mid-water? The main reason I think kneeling is still prevailing is the cost (time) involved with teaching students to hover is assumed to be high. I'm assuming most people realize that disposable income is dropping, so the cost of scuba training is dropping, and corners are being cut. If the time involved isn't (much) higher....there might be a better argument for going to hover.
 
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Some want to call it "dumbing down", but I don't see it that way. Evolution has a way of making many tasks easier to do and some people erroneously equate hard with being better. No, it's just harder and often counter productive.

There is a very old joke that was reasonably funny at the juvenile level but is actually instructive in this regard. Here it is:

Question: What has four legs, is covered with hair, and is made out of cement?
Answer: Lassie. I put in the cement to make it hard.​

For many people, instruction that is harder is indeed better, when in reality it mostly means you weren't an effective teacher. You did things that interfered with student learning, and you were proud of it.

I used to be an English teacher. Years ago a fellow teacher, an excellent one, came into the office with a look of wonder on her face. She had just attempted a totally different approach to teaching a certain concept that she had taught the traditional way used by most instructors for over 20 years. She said that in one day of instruction, her students were better at it than they used to be after two weeks of traditional instruction. Now, when others later heard that she was only spending one day teaching that concept, they ridiculed her for dumbing down the instruction. They were doing a better job, because they were devoting two weeks to it.

When I started technical diving, my instructor let it be known that we were not going to be "babied" the way PADI does--we were going to learn scuba the old fashioned way. I soon figured out that what he meant by that was "I don't plan to use proven effective instructional methods--you are on your own." On my own, I struggled to learn skills that would have come to me easily if I had been "babied."
 
Others who use the horizontal method will likely back me up when I say it takes no longer. In fact using this method is actually faster when it comes to seeing that students are more comfortable and relaxed as they are in a natural position for diving. The kneeling crap always seemed to add complexity to the instruction from my observations as a DM. This was mainly due to students feeling out of control for as much as half the session or more as they tried to stay upright. As a DM and AI under the YMCA and NAUI OW classes I assisted and taught we never did skills on the knees and the difference was clear. So when I got my instructor rating and my first group of three students neutral buoyancy with bc and breath control along with proper weighting and horizontal trim was how the first session on scuba began. No other skills were done until they had a grasp of that and by the end of that first session they were clearing masks, removing and replacing regs, and removing and replacing weight belts while swimming around in the deep end. That was a two hour session. I did not do that until the third session in my own OW cert class.
By the third scuba session in my classes they are buddy breathing while swimming, doing doff and don or bailout, and no mask swims.

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My OW was taught vertical on the knees and I'll admit that I have taught a number of courses in that position. I have since been 'saved.'

Others who use the horizontal method will likely back me up when I say it takes no longer. In fact using this method is actually faster when it comes to seeing that students are more comfortable and relaxed as they are in a natural position for diving. The kneeling crap always seemed to add complexity to the instruction from my observations as a DM. This was mainly due to students feeling out of control for as much as half the session or more as they tried to stay upright.
I'll agree with Jim. The complexity of kneeling, IME, adds additional time to a course. What I have found is that by changing from a kneeling to horizontal or non-kneeling approach, my courses have more 'free' time. This free time is not a means to end the course and send students home early, it is used to practice and develop the skills learned.
Give a group of students toypedos and 20 minutes with only one finger touches the bottom rule and let'em play.
Have students horizontal and hovering in a circle and have them pass different weights around the circle pays dividends.
 
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Just completed my OW course and we were on knees, I kept falling forward somewhat, so I just leaned far back and grabbed my fin straps to stay down-- MUCH better.
 
So some "instructors" think they don't have time to do it right; I see.
 

NetDoc: How much harder was it for you to train your students in horizontal trim mid-water? The main reason I think kneeling is still prevailing is the cost (time) involved with teaching students to hover is assumed to be high. I'm assuming most people realize that disposable income is dropping, so the cost of scuba training is dropping, and corners are being cut. If the time involved isn't (much) higher....there might be a better argument for going to hover.
Victor, I teach this way. It really doesn't take very long to get them comfortably neutral. Once they start to "get it", actual skills become a breeze. It's actually easier to recover a reg while horizontal, and easier to clear a mask, and so forth. My pool sessions are still about the same amount of time, but more practice/"mimic the teacher"/play time.
In the long run, my classes end up running smoother. When the student understands that they are in control, there are way fewer problems. I have not had a single panic/bolter in Open Water since I started teaching this way. I have had fewer re-do's/re-schedules, students have fewer ear problems, etc.

---------- Post added August 2nd, 2013 at 10:55 AM ----------

Just completed my OW course and we were on knees, I kept falling forward somewhat, so I just leaned far back and grabbed my fin straps to stay down-- MUCH better.
:facepalm:Fins under you? PLEASE don't do that when you get to my reefs in Key Largo. Sorry Tampa, It's not just you. It's a large percentage of the instructors/students that come down here and kick up our fragile reefs.
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Falling forward? Go with it! Get horizontal. Leaning backward is counter productive. With fins under you, basic physics deems that you will only go up rather than forward. So when a diver has to go vertical to clear their mask, it is not uncommon for that diver to suddenly find themselves 20ft higher than when they started. This leads to ear/equalization issues.
 

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