I'm ready to go retro, double hose

[Gilldiver]

Take what Luis says as the "Word of God" on the US Divers reg. He doesn't toot his horn but I will. Luis is the designer of the Phoenix Nozzle and the improved wagon wheels.

Without his work and what Vintage Double Hose and Vintage Scuba Supply have done for getting new parts, the double hose regs would mostly all be in the basements or on a wall as a curiosity.

That said, I would get a DA Aquamaster as they are about the most common on Ebay and either rebuild it or have it rebuilt. If you do it yourself, get a rebuild kit ($15), new can clamp ($20), a silicone diaphragm ($45), and the new wagon wheel assemblies ($20). It is not all that hard to do.

If you need hoses and a mouth piece, they might run another $100 or a bit less if Bryan does a Aquamaster package with his new silicone hoses.

Dive it and see if you like it. If you do, then get a nozzle and go as far as you like. But be careful, you may just start get a lot of them. I started with a Dacor R-44 and now have:

Dacor R-44
Voit Polaris 50
US Divers Mistral
US Divers DW Airstream
US Divers DA Aquamaster
US Divers DA Aquamaster with a Phoenix Nozzle

All but the Dacor are rebuilt and ready to dive.

And am now on the lookout for a Royal Aquamaster

I think I will stop when I get all of the US Divers Double hoses. I think, maybe, if the wife lets me.

If she finds out, I'm dead.

 

[Greg Barlow]

While my interest in diving ranges from that of caves to reefs, it is vintage diving that is my "hands down" favorite. It takes me back to when I began diving more than 34 years ago.

I agree that a US Divers DA Aquamaster is the way to go. They are relatively inexpensive, and easy to find. I highly suggest that you have it rebuilt and upgraded with the reproduction parts that are now on the market. Bryan Pennington has done collectors a wonderful service by reproducing these parts. With time, you might choose to have the Phoenix assembly installed, which upgrades the performance to a marked degree. I have dove at least 5 different Phoenix conversion regs, and they were all excellent performers.

While I am a collector and restorer of the various Voit models, they are just too expensive compared to the USD versions. For example, my Voit Navy is the same regulator as the common USD DA Aquamaster. The Voit version would sell for at least two to three times as much on eBay.

My favorite is the Voit 50 Fathom. It is a single stage, downstream model that does not have a USD twin brother. Mine are rebuilt, and have the silicone reproduction parts installed. The silicone diaphragms are probably the best thing that ever happened to the DH regs, IMHO. My own DH regs breathe better than they when they left the factory. One of my 50 Fathoms was used on a dive to 135' this past spring, and it gave me very satisfactory performance.

For the ultimate in dependability, you can't go with the single stage regs. The USD Mistral and various Voit models are unmatched in simplicity. They also offer venturi assistance, which makes a very noticeable difference in inhalation effort.

Greg Barlow
Former Science Editor for Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine

 

[Nemrod]

Well, if y'all gonna show off, when the s(tuff) hits the fan, don't reach for no sissy plastic fantastic toy, reach for the twin hose, these proven warriors. A few of my favorites. I don't really have very many but each is special. Each is also better than new thanks to parts from vdh and vss and the Phoenix mod to the Royal Aqua Master in the back (thanks Luis).

Here displayed on a LSU blanket, National Champion College team, go SEC, go Louisiana!

Just a few days ago the PRAM in the back was at 120 plus feet in a cold and dark quarry, water temp in the 40s, me freezing, it providing confidence with every breath, just as it has done for thrity five years. Now that is a REGULATOR you can count on not to let you down. When I am into a dive and I don't know what to expect, the plastic crap stays in the bag, hand me the Royal Aqua Master.

Think about this, what you are looking at there dive homies is somewhere around 160 years of diving, more than an entire room of Apecxeo swinging techie's plastic pool toys .

N, vintage dive homie

 

[dheidem1@tampabay.rr.]

I've dove with a few. Kind of cool. For serious diving, the single hose is the best, safest system out there. The old double hose, "Mike Nelson", equipment is great, but it can't hold a candle to even the most basic of the single hose regs. The arguement that the double hose is better for photography is BS. If you can't hold your breath for a minute or two, while you're doing your photog "thing", leave the camera on deck. Video shoots (the good ones), are editied from clips of no more than 15 or 20 seconds at a crack.

More power to you double hose "retro" guys, but the two stage, single hose regulator is far superior to your throwback stuff. The original poster sounds like a straight up dude. For the simple, shallow water dive stuff, the double hose retro rig would be OK. I've dove them to 75 ft. Would I dive it deeper? No way. They're cool, for the fifties and early sixties, but if serious diving-stay away!!!

 

[Luis H]

I've dove with a few. Kind of cool. For serious diving, the single hose is the best, safest system out there. The old double hose, "Mike Nelson", equipment is great, but it can't hold a candle to even the most basic of the single hose regs. The arguement that the double hose is better for photography is BS. If you can't hold your breath for a minute or two, while you're doing your photog "thing", leave the camera on deck. Video shoots (the good ones), are editied from clips of no more than 15 or 20 seconds at a crack.

More power to you double hose "retro" guys, but the two stage, single hose regulator is far superior to your throwback stuff. The original poster sounds like a straight up dude. For the simple, shallow water dive stuff, the double hose retro rig would be OK. I've dove them to 75 ft. Would I dive it deeper? No way. They're cool, for the fifties and early sixties, but if serious diving-stay away!!!

You are totally miss-informed.

If you look at "mean-time-between failure" (MTBF), number of failure point, or any other reliability measuring means, you could easily show that a double hose regulator is far more reliable that a single hose.

On most two stages double hose both the first and second stage are environmentally sealed. No contaminants or cold water should reach any moving parts.

Cousteau favorite regulator was the old single stage Mistral because with only three moving parts and only one seal (the valve seat) it is virtually fail proof. It was his regulator of choice to dive the Britannic and many other deep dive explorations long before all the new tech diving popularity.

All the mechanical parts in a vintage Royal Aqua Master are the exact same as in a modern Conshelf, Titan, and many other Aqualung (and other cloned) regulators being built today. The major reason is due to their reliability. The major difference is that in a RAM it is all housed in one single brass body with no connecting O-rings and possibilities of leaks or other hose failures.

To make it worst the use of plastics has plagued modern second stages with a large number of O-ring connections and dissimilar materials with different thermal expansion coefficients and a very high potential for miss-fitting parts.

I hope I am not being harsh, but your statements are almost like a sales speech from some modern regulator manufacturer. It has no true technical substance to back it up.

I do own some new high performance regulators, but I much prefer the high reliability and proven long term dependability of one of my RAM. Actually if I need to use a single hose I also prefer my 35 year old metal Scubapro second stages, but they are seldom used.

I have dove far deeper with a double hose than with any of my single hose and felt very comfortable with its reliability.

For the most part all regulators including modern plastic second stages are very reliable, but I have purchased several Aqua Master and Royal Aqua Master regulators that have not had any service for 40 years and they worked just fine. Very few single hose can go without service for anything near that. One of the few single hose that is almost as reliable is the Conshelf, which is a direct descendant of the Royal Aqua Master.



Oh BTW, welcome to Scubaboard.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I've dove with a few. Kind of cool. For serious diving, the single hose is the best, safest system out there. The old double hose, "Mike Nelson", equipment is great, but it can't hold a candle to even the most basic of the single hose regs. The arguement that the double hose is better for photography is BS. If you can't hold your breath for a minute or two, while you're doing your photog "thing", leave the camera on deck. Video shoots (the good ones), are editied from clips of no more than 15 or 20 seconds at a crack.

More power to you double hose "retro" guys, but the two stage, single hose regulator is far superior to your throwback stuff. The original poster sounds like a straight up dude. For the simple, shallow water dive stuff, the double hose retro rig would be OK. I've dove them to 75 ft. Would I dive it deeper? No way. They're cool, for the fifties and early sixties, but if serious diving-stay away!!!

Not to turn this into a beating, but you are in error on the facts. You are also doing the internet version of playing in traffic when you consider the expertise you are debating, but I'll assume you just don't know it and mean well as opposed to just trolling.

Luis is overly modest, but he is in my opinion "the" man when it comes to double hose regs and certainly when it comes to Phoenix nozzle since it was his idea and creation.

As a bit of a history lesson, the first single hose regs came out as cheaper low end alternatives to doubel hose regs. There were realy only two advantages a single hose reg has is that the second stage stays at the same level as the mouthpiece. Other than that, it is pretty much all downhill in terms of mechanical complexity, failure points and environmental sealing.

The other advantage was a easier adpatability of the single hose reg to the growing number of high and low pressure accessories requiring an HP and eventually multiple LP ports and that is in my estimation where the single hose reg rose in prominence. What would have happened had the Phoenix nozzel been available in the late 1960's and early 1970's is an interesting question.

For ice diving, you can't do better than a double hose reg as it has lots of surface area for heat transfer and both stages are dry - something that is not possible with single hose reg.

As a reg tech, I can tell you nearly every reg I own gets serviced annually - except my double hose regs. They have not been serviced since they were each rebuilt and the majority of them still functioned with no leaks when I rebuilt them - in many cases decades after their last service. The only single hose regs that come close to that are Conshelf 14's - and the Conshelf first stage is a direct descendent of the Royal Aquamaster.

With regard to photography, the exhaust from a double hose is much more diffuse and lacks that more or less explosive burst that occurs with a single hose reg, so it scares fish less. Plus they will "hide" from the bubbles by putting you between the bubbles and themselves - which sets them up nicely for photo opportunities. Obviously, you've never tried it.

In terms of technical diving, I use modern single hose regs for reasons related to air sharing, left and right posts, etc where the single hose design does work better due to it's layout. The irony of course is that some of the need for redundant regs in technical diving is caused by the much less reliable nature of single hose regs.

Again, welcome to Scubaboard, but you may want to lurk and learn a bit before you spout anything remotely sounding like the 2 minute PADI OW lecture on the evolution of regulators in this particular forum.

 

[captain]

Hey Nem, if dheidem1 thinks double hoses can't cut it post that picture of you at 135' on the Big O for him.

 

[Greg Barlow]

I've dove with a few. Kind of cool. For serious diving, the single hose is the best, safest system out there. The old double hose, "Mike Nelson", equipment is great, but it can't hold a candle to even the most basic of the single hose regs. The arguement that the double hose is better for photography is BS. If you can't hold your breath for a minute or two, while you're doing your photog "thing", leave the camera on deck. Video shoots (the good ones), are editied from clips of no more than 15 or 20 seconds at a crack.

More power to you double hose "retro" guys, but the two stage, single hose regulator is far superior to your throwback stuff. The original poster sounds like a straight up dude. For the simple, shallow water dive stuff, the double hose retro rig would be OK. I've dove them to 75 ft. Would I dive it deeper? No way. They're cool, for the fifties and early sixties, but if serious diving-stay away!!!

As Luis has accurately described, your logic is flawed. First, let me say that I service regulators, both modern and vintage. I also routinely carry out technical dives where modern equipment is the equipment of choice. My reason for mentioning these things is that I fully understand the mechanical principles of regulator design. Luis is a mechanical engineer, and a gifted one at that. He and I have had numerous conversations about regulator designs. Neither Luis, nor I, are merely "parts changers".

That said, vintage single stage regulators are "hands down" the ultimate in utter dependability. My favorite reg is the original Gagnan design Voit 50 Fathom. The 50 Fathom contains only 5 moving parts. These parts are all made of stainless steel, and are of heavy construction. In fact, for lack of a better term, they are "overengineered". Perhaps the most important part of the system's dependability is that it has zero O-rings. Yeah, you read that right...No O-rings. The design is also a downstream design, so that if a part did fail it free flows gas.

Do double hose regs breathe better than modern single hose regs? No, they do not. The fact that the ambient water pressure sensing diaphragm lies a few inches above the diver's lungs makes inhalation more difficult. However, this same pressure effect allows the double hose reg to have superior exhalation effort.

Modern, single hose regs are very well made. However, with the exception of a few models, they are overly complicated. I have restored vintage single hose regs that were manufactured in the early 1970s that have been tested on ANSTI breathing simulators. These are the identical machines that all the manufacturers use to test/develop their gear. A few of these models such as the Swimaster MR-12, USD Calypso VI, and Scubapro MK VII 108, actually passed the modern USN standards to receive the official stamp of approval for use by today's divers. Trust me, on this one...Compared to the majority of today's "high performance" regs they are vastly more reliable due to about a third of the parts.

No matter how high the quality, the greater the mechanical complexity the more chance of failure. While modern regs typically have exceptional quality in parts manufacture, they also are more difficult for techs to rebuild to factory standards. I dare say that a reg is more likely to fail after a rebuild than when it was pulled from the factory box.

Me? When making technical dives I reach for my modern, "high tech" gear. When diving for fun and pure relaxation, you will typically see two gray silicone hoses around my neck.

In fact, this reg is my favorite double hose.

This is my favorite vintage single hose model. It was the first USN approved single hose reg. The MR-12 name literally means: Military Regulator 1 Hose 2 Stages.

Greg Barlow
Former Science Editor for Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine

 

[Nemrod]

I've dove with a few. Kind of cool. For serious diving, the single hose is the best, safest system out there. The old double hose, "Mike Nelson", equipment is great, but it can't hold a candle to even the most basic of the single hose regs. The arguement that the double hose is better for photography is BS. If you can't hold your breath for a minute or two, while you're doing your photog "thing", leave the camera on deck. Video shoots (the good ones), are editied from clips of no more than 15 or 20 seconds at a crack.

More power to you double hose "retro" guys, but the two stage, single hose regulator is far superior to your throwback stuff. The original poster sounds like a straight up dude. For the simple, shallow water dive stuff, the double hose retro rig would be OK. I've dove them to 75 ft. Would I dive it deeper? No way. They're cool, for the fifties and early sixties, but if serious diving-stay away!!!

Oh baloney.:mooner: Your plastic crap will be in a landfill in a few months, we "retro" guys will still be happily swimming around with our "throwback" stuff and we "retro" guys are obviously just better divers since we do what you cannot do.

Kneeling on the deck of the Mighty O at 140 feet two years ago:

Life don't begin until 100 feet. My deepest dive this year was 140 feet for exploration of a natrual bottom area, last year it was over 170 feet (deeper actually) for exploration of a sunken bridge, both solo, both on a Phoenix RAM. The plastic single hose girly stuff is OK for shallow diving and recreational use but when it gets serious I need a metal regulator, one that will not crumble or crack, one I can trust with proven decades of reliability. The only thing that kept me from going deeper was that I ran into bottom, I hate that when that happens .

N

 

[Nemrod]

Hey Nem, if dheidem1 thinks double hoses can't cut it post that picture of you at 135' on the Big O for him.

Hey, don't we have "The Boss" on the ground now in Tampa, we could send him by for some hose cutting . I know he just got that compressor which cost as much as 1.1 HU (Harley Units, 25,000 USD) and it is full dress chrome with dual exhaust. Apparently the local shops gave him a hassle with his tanks, that was a mistake, .

Captain, I hope you are above water down there?

Nem