I'm hooked.... how to progress

[kensuf]

No not exactly the same - it cannot access the gas in the other tank. This is one of the issues with the current fad of open water sidemount and the industry's attempt to make sidemount comply with gas sharing protocols. In a sidemount team there should be no need to share gas, the OOG diver has two independent gas systems - this is one good advantage of sidemount. However, because this has become a fad rather than a need driven system there are mixed equipment buddy pairs and teams where a OOG diver needs to take gas from a sidemount equipped buddy.

The only time I've had to donate to a real out of gas diver in a cave, the diver that was out of gas was not one of my dive buddies. He had gotten entangled and disoriented, and his buddy abandoned him. We found him and towed him out, he ran out of gas 200' from the exit. I gave him gas, he's alive today, 22 years later.

You need to always be prepared for the unexpected.

 

[halocline]

In a restriction where a long hose is deployed only that tank can donate gas. This forces the issue and either the tank has to have two 2nds or the donating diver must breathe from the other tank. Such an arrangement is very limiting and so with rule of thirds and potentially sharing from only one tank such a combination is very very limited in it's gas capacity for penetration.

In BM, the donating diver is breathing off the left post and the receiving diver off the right. In SM, the donating diver is breathing off the left tank and the receiving off the right. It's the same amount of gas for both divers in each case. The only potential problem would be if the donating diver has not switched tanks throughout the dive, and as such, there is less gas in the right tank. So I don't understand why you say it's "very very limited" in gas capacity.

Consider an OOA situation where the donating diver has 2000 PSI left, (lets assume AL80s for all divers) a worst case scenario because it means the team is at the deepest penetration and the donating diver is lower on gas than the receiving. (If the receiving diver had less than 2000, the dive would have already been turned) Okay, so both divers are now exiting on approximately 102 cft of gas. (2/3 of 154 cft), or about 51 cft per diver. The same dive in SM, each diver is exiting on about 51 cft in each tank. The only difference is that the gas supplies are not connected via a manifold.

 

[Caveeagle]

Just a couple points to add.

cave1 / cave 2 is NOT the same as the traditional. Cavern/intro/apprentice/full cave route. There is also a path for Cave1 though Naui, so the OP needs to be aware the terminology is not all compatible.

I would ask the OP to clarify the short term goal. ..just to "dive past the sign"? ..the lure of the forbidden? ..or to improve diving skills and gear to safely go further into the overhead environment? (Where seeing cool cave stuff is a bonus!). I have also seen ego and peer pressure as motivators, but that does not sounds like the case here.

I also don't necessarily agree with all the minimum #of dives people are quoting. Not everyone is the same, and its skills, capability, and confidence that really matters. Put your flame throwers on safe! I am not suggesting that anyone is ready for overhead training with just 20 dives. What I am saying is that quality of instruction, attitude, feedback, follow up, focus mastery of skills, will all matter, and cannot generally be measured by Dive count. I have also observed divers with >200 OW dives fail to pass an intro class, mostly due to overconfidence and difficulty in unlearning bad habits.

If the OP wants the fastest way to get a full cave cert, then block out some vacation time and head down to Mexico, or N.Fla. Zero-to-hero happens for reason. It's hard to be patient and stick with the safer (better) long term strategy.

Conversely, if you can be patient, and play the "long game", you have to be careful about who you listen to,

I would forget about sidemount for the time being, it will just add unnecessary cost and complexity to your skills advancement. Even if you pay for a SM rig, and instruction, in Monterey, you will have a hard time getting enough dives in to really get good at it. You can actually push off the doubles too, unless you have easy access to that gear. A perfect combo might be a set of double LP50s just to get used to the configuration withought the bulk/weight but I wouldn't go spend the $$ on that.

There are several things you can do to progress and get yourself moving in that direction.

-perfect buoyancy and trim. Remove as much weight as possible. Be horizontal with you and your fins never touching bottom.
-practice good propulsion technique. Frog kick, modified flutter, etc
-learn to use a reel and spools. You can practice on land or OW. Lots of people fumble with this in cave class.
-make sure you have thermal protection sorted out. If your going with dry suit, learn that now in Monterey. So you have that skill down before formal overhead training,
-learn to use a primary and backup lights. Signaling and stowage etc.
-Nitrox, Advance Nitrox Etc. these will really help to have in hand before advancing.
-start diving a "hogarthian" (long hose primary) with your current gear. You can do this even in single tank with a recreational BC.
-if you have not bought your own gear yet, start working on that with an eye on long term goals.

*from a "cave skills" perspective, I would put sidemount diving well below all of the above recommendations to get you ready for formal overhead training.

Point being, you can do a lot now, to make sure you are well prepared for cavern/intro training when you get to that Point.

 

[victor808]

I would ask the OP to clarify the short term goal. ..just to "dive past the sign"? ..the lure of the forbidden? ..or to improve diving skills and gear to safely go further into the overhead environment? (Where seeing cool cave stuff is a bonus!). I have also seen ego and peer pressure as motivators, but that does not sounds like the case here.

You're probably going to be disappointed, but it's likely the first.
I am practical about this. I really enjoy diving, but diving solely for the sake of improving skills is not my goal. A more appropriate wording of my goal would be "gaining the skills necessary to be able to explore areas which are currently closed off to me, and which will always be closed off to a huge percentage of the population". I know a lot of people are probably not thrilled about a person having that mindset, but I don't get the luxury of unlimited time in the water, I have to be judicious and more targeted. Gaining a skill for no reason other than having it, is less desirable to me.

That being said, I am already very comfortable in the water. I was a competitive swimmer for 15 years of my life, concepts of buoyancy (I weight myself to the bare minimum, can hover just off the bottom without moving etc) and propulsion (again, I've run through the various kicks in my AOW, and had no problem with any of it) aren't an issue.

Buying gear with an eye towards the long term becomes a problem at this stage though. If my goal is to move towards cave training, then most of the gear (BCD/regs) wouldn't be applicable with my current capabilities. I feel like I'm at a weird middle ground where I could get my own heavy wetsuit/BCD/reg for standard dives along the west coast now, but none of those would have any real value to me long term if I'm going to try to move to doubles, or potentially sidemount.

 

[PfcAJ]

You're probably going to be disappointed, but it's likely the first.
I am practical about this. I really enjoy diving, but diving solely for the sake of improving skills is not my goal. A more appropriate wording of my goal would be "gaining the skills necessary to be able to explore areas which are currently closed off to me, and which will always be closed off to a huge percentage of the population". I know a lot of people are probably not thrilled about a person having that mindset, but I don't get the luxury of unlimited time in the water, I have to be judicious and more targeted. Gaining a skill for no reason other than having it, is less desirable to me.

That being said, I am already very comfortable in the water. I was a competitive swimmer for 15 years of my life, concepts of buoyancy (I weight myself to the bare minimum, can hover just off the bottom without moving etc) and propulsion (again, I've run through the various kicks in my AOW, and had no problem with any of it) aren't an issue.

Buying gear with an eye towards the long term becomes a problem at this stage though. If my goal is to move towards cave training, then most of the gear (BCD/regs) wouldn't be applicable with my current capabilities. I feel like I'm at a weird middle ground where I could get my own heavy wetsuit/BCD/reg for standard dives along the west coast now, but none of those would have any real value to me long term if I'm going to try to move to doubles, or potentially sidemount.

Read dis:
Equipment Configuration | Global Underwater Explorers

Buy that gear.

You’re not in a gear middle ground. Just purchase smartly.

 

[pgsl]

That being said, I am already very comfortable in the water. I was a competitive swimmer for 15 years of my life, concepts of buoyancy (I weight myself to the bare minimum, can hover just off the bottom without moving etc) and propulsion (again, I'veBuying gear with an eye towards the long term becomes a problem at this stage though. If my goal is to move towards cave training, then most of the gear (BCD/regs) wouldn't be applicable with my current capabilities. I feel like I'm at a weird middle ground where I could get my own heavy wetsuit/BCD/reg for standard dives along the west coast now, but none of those would have any real value to me long term if I'm going to try to move to doubles, or potentially sidemount.

You could do as I did when I first bought gear after 10 dives. Backplate, single tank wing, regulators with long hose set up and so on. Easy scaling it up for doubles and very applicable to normal ow diving. I’m pretty much using the same stuff cave diving today as I started diving with, only added more components as the journey carried on.

Buy once, cry once.

Edit: what PfcAJ said

 

[MichaelMc]

Buying gear with an eye towards the long term becomes a problem at this stage though. If my goal is to move towards cave training, then most of the gear (BCD/regs) wouldn't be applicable with my current capabilities. I feel like I'm at a weird middle ground where I could get my own heavy wetsuit/BCD/reg for standard dives along the west coast now, but none of those would have any real value to me long term if I'm going to try to move to doubles, or potentially sidemount.

I don't see an impediment to using gear suitable for caves as part of a recreational diving kit. I'm not a tech diver, but I've used BP/W for scientific/recreational diving for three years now.

A standard BP/W is designed for doubles but works great for recreational singles diving. The only lost ground going to tech is the wing, and the tanks. Plus you need an extra reg set for the second post. Assuming you're using long hose, bungeed secondary, and basically tech secondary lights as your rec primary lights. Most rec divers will not understand your gear, but my experience is that all dive boats are fine with it, even happier to see you, as it likely correlates with being a better diver. I got my BP/W before my regs as the BP/W is really the base of your personalized (recreational) system. If you rent regs, they still work with PB/W, just they are not set up optimally for it, basically lacking the short hose for the bungeed secondary, and having big consoles. Regs with 5th port pointed down make long hose routing clearer. Rotating turrets apparently make sidemount routing easier. Conveniently, they usually go together as features.

If you go sidemount, you already have redundant air and need the second reg, so there would seem to be even less change, though I am not yet a sidemount diver.

 

[Caveeagle]

You're probably going to be disappointed, but it's likely the first.
I am practical about this. I really enjoy diving, but diving solely for the sake of improving skills is not my goal. A more appropriate wording of my goal would be "gaining the skills necessary to be able to explore areas which are currently closed off to me, and which will always be closed off to a huge percentage of the population". I know a lot of people are probably not thrilled about a person having that mindset, but I don't get the luxury of unlimited time in the water, I have to be judicious and more targeted. Gaining a skill for no reason other than having it, is less desirable to me.

No disappointment here. You are certainly not the first.

Buying gear with an eye towards the long term becomes a problem at this stage though. If my goal is to move towards cave training, then most of the gear (BCD/regs) wouldn't be applicable with my current capabilities. I feel like I'm at a weird middle ground where I could get my own heavy wetsuit/BCD/reg for standard dives along the west coast now, but none of those would have any real value to me long term if I'm going to try to move to doubles, or potentially sidemount.

This should not be any problem at all. My daughter used a Hollis neotek semi dry suit for diving in Monterey bay. Works fine for that, and is very common for cave divers to use as well. Get a good set of regs and your covered for both. As others have said, a single tank backPlate/wing combo is great for OW and will cover you for cavern and cave.

By that point, you will be swimming well past the grim reaper signs and should really know if your signing up for more. Honestly, if you are not really hooked into caves at that point, you probably won't be booking trips to Mexico or Florida.

What is really disappointing is people who rush into shortest route to getting cave cert, and then show up once every 2-3 years thinking that piece of plastic makes them a super stud, and then proceed to sh1t all over our caves. ...or worse cause incident giving the sport another black eye.

 

[Zack-Bloom]

You dive out of Bamboo Reef in SF. Walk into the shop, tell them you want to cave dive, ask for Lexi or Sean. They both dive the cenotes every year and can answer all your questions, teach you sidemount, etc.

 

[chrisch]

You're probably going to be disappointed, but it's likely the first.
I am practical about this. I really enjoy diving, but diving solely for the sake of improving skills is not my goal. A more appropriate wording of my goal would be "gaining the skills necessary to be able to explore areas which are currently closed off to me, and which will always be closed off to a huge percentage of the population". I know a lot of people are probably not thrilled about a person having that mindset, but I don't get the luxury of unlimited time in the water, I have to be judicious and more targeted. Gaining a skill for no reason other than having it, is less desirable to me.

Seems reasonable. I put in a lot of water time to get skills up to a standard where I can do the dives I want to do. Main thing is to enjoy the process. Have a great recreational dive then spend 3 minutes practising valve shut down drills at the end of the dive at 5m (15ft) and think of it as a safety stop. Lots of just skills training sounds like a real chore.

Buying gear with an eye towards the long term becomes a problem at this stage though. If my goal is to move towards cave training, then most of the gear (BCD/regs) wouldn't be applicable with my current capabilities. I feel like I'm at a weird middle ground where I could get my own heavy wetsuit/BCD/reg for standard dives along the west coast now, but none of those would have any real value to me long term if I'm going to try to move to doubles, or potentially sidemount.

A backplate wing and small doubles is great for all types of diving. A membrane drysuit is good for all types of diving. A long hose setup is good for all types of diving. A backup light is good as a general torch for all types of diving. That pretty much describes my standard gear. For cave diving just add a canister light. For deep diving just add a deco tank.

The only downside of this setup is if you need to undertake a multi dive day and that is better achieved by several single tanks. You can use a decanting whip to top up your doubles for follow on dives if that gives enough gas. You will find using a single tank adaptor is sub optimal and really needs a dual outlet tank or reg change plus sometimes a bit more weight. Ideal is to have a single tank wing as well as the doubles wing.