SmokingMirror
Contributor
The content of the thread title was said to me during a brief conversation with a Californian lady I happened to be sitting next to on a recent flight to Nairobi. I politely enquired with a smile as to how she considered this possible, whereupon she seemed rather confused, finally answering with "Well, like, my ancestors were European and stuff". Needless to say, the conversation didn't last much beyond the usual we're-stuck-side-by-side-on-a-ten-hour-flight pleasantries.
However, her statements - moronic as they were - highlighted a deeper form of national identity, which I'm curious to get people's opinions on.
Firstly, this thread has not been established for non-American posters to mock the American posters, or vice-versa. I'm interested in the thoughts of all the posters here, and, especially, of a variety of ages, so let's all try to maintain a flame-free discussion.
The crux of this thread is concerned with national identity, specifically manifested in what appears to be a propensity for many Americans to deny their own nationality and claim - in part - to be <insert whichever European country here>, and the questions raised therein.
Historically, the reason for this is self-evident. America, as a unified national entity, only has a few hundred years history compared with Europe's few thousand, and early settlers and immigrants generally divided themselves by country of origin, as much for reasons of security as identity. But is this nationalistic banding together really relevant today?
For many Europeans, a sense of national identity - not to be confused with national pride - is very clear. I have never met, seen, or even heard of any European claiming to be, for example, half-Irish and half-German. Even those with parents who are directly and identifiably belonging to a nation other than their own will rarely - if ever - consider themselves a nationality other than the one on whose soil they were born. Is the reason for this identity maturity; the knowledge that claiming to be part of another nation reaps no tangible benefits?
The converse of this is, of course, that for many Americans, a sense of national identity is not quite so clear. I have a close friend living in New York, Sarah, who considers herself part-Irish because, as far as any of us have been able to ascertain from her, her paternal grandfather lived there for a period. Her case is interesting, since she is not necessarily embarrassed to consider herself an American, but that the usage of the term as a form of self-identification simply doesn't occur to her. It is, however, interesting to note that regardless of their country of origin - and this holds true for most - people will come to their nation's defence if it is attacked. Case in point is again Sarah, who, when asked to consider that she might claim to be part Irish because she is embarrassed to admit to being an American, will become nationally defensive. I've noticed this in myself, when meeting with European friends who make a stereotyped joke about the English. Invariably (or perhaps the word should be instinctively?) I'll respond with a similar jibe against them, based on the strength of England. And this from somebody who doesn't consider themselves 'English', beyond the fact that they were born here.
So, to jump back across the Atlantic, is then this desire for many Americans to claim a link to Europe, a continuation of those early days of the immigrants? Or do many modern Americans feel that without making that claim their national identity is diminished?
The flip side to this coin is of course jingoism, which, as idiotic and ignorant as it is, sadly affects a great many people regardless of their national origins. In the case of the US, it is interesting to see how divisive the question of nationality is. Invariably there is one extreme or the other, unlike Europe where people, by and large, are less concerned, if indeed really care at all.
In many ways, Walcott - one of my favourite poets - summed it up well when he wrote: "I'm just a red ****** who love the sea/I had a sound colonial education/I have Dutch, ******, and English in me/and either I'm nobody, or I'm a nation." which seems to me to be a claim that our essential, individual identities depend upon our ability to view ourselves as a people. If so, then the people of a nation require a tale that in a plausible way describes and dramatizes their origins; without it, they will separate themselves first from their antecedents and then from one another, and, like a deracinated family, the People will perish. In Walcott's words, they will be nothing.
So why, in view of this, do so many Americans continue to - I'm sure genuinely - believe that they are part-<whichever nation>, when a strong sense of national identity is readily available to those who recognise that America's sense of self-identification is drawn from, and strengthened by, that very cultural diversity that went into its creation?
Right, that's more than enough talking from me, so now it's your turn.
Posters from the US, I'm as interested in your own views on your personal sense of national identity as I am on your thoughts regarding the greater question. Do you claim a direct connection with Europe, despite being born in the US? Are you proud to be American? Is there even a need to be proud to be part of any country?
Posters from Europe, are you proud of your national identity? Does it provide any benefit? And does it irritate you when an American - or indeed anyone for that matter - claims to be part of your country?
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As a brief footnote, I notice that Scubaboard automatically blanks out certain keywords (in this case those used by Walcott in his poem about identity). For those wanting to read the complete piece, without sections being removed under the confused idea that readers are not mature enough to take them in their intended context, I suggest this page.
However, her statements - moronic as they were - highlighted a deeper form of national identity, which I'm curious to get people's opinions on.
Firstly, this thread has not been established for non-American posters to mock the American posters, or vice-versa. I'm interested in the thoughts of all the posters here, and, especially, of a variety of ages, so let's all try to maintain a flame-free discussion.
The crux of this thread is concerned with national identity, specifically manifested in what appears to be a propensity for many Americans to deny their own nationality and claim - in part - to be <insert whichever European country here>, and the questions raised therein.
Historically, the reason for this is self-evident. America, as a unified national entity, only has a few hundred years history compared with Europe's few thousand, and early settlers and immigrants generally divided themselves by country of origin, as much for reasons of security as identity. But is this nationalistic banding together really relevant today?
For many Europeans, a sense of national identity - not to be confused with national pride - is very clear. I have never met, seen, or even heard of any European claiming to be, for example, half-Irish and half-German. Even those with parents who are directly and identifiably belonging to a nation other than their own will rarely - if ever - consider themselves a nationality other than the one on whose soil they were born. Is the reason for this identity maturity; the knowledge that claiming to be part of another nation reaps no tangible benefits?
The converse of this is, of course, that for many Americans, a sense of national identity is not quite so clear. I have a close friend living in New York, Sarah, who considers herself part-Irish because, as far as any of us have been able to ascertain from her, her paternal grandfather lived there for a period. Her case is interesting, since she is not necessarily embarrassed to consider herself an American, but that the usage of the term as a form of self-identification simply doesn't occur to her. It is, however, interesting to note that regardless of their country of origin - and this holds true for most - people will come to their nation's defence if it is attacked. Case in point is again Sarah, who, when asked to consider that she might claim to be part Irish because she is embarrassed to admit to being an American, will become nationally defensive. I've noticed this in myself, when meeting with European friends who make a stereotyped joke about the English. Invariably (or perhaps the word should be instinctively?) I'll respond with a similar jibe against them, based on the strength of England. And this from somebody who doesn't consider themselves 'English', beyond the fact that they were born here.
So, to jump back across the Atlantic, is then this desire for many Americans to claim a link to Europe, a continuation of those early days of the immigrants? Or do many modern Americans feel that without making that claim their national identity is diminished?
The flip side to this coin is of course jingoism, which, as idiotic and ignorant as it is, sadly affects a great many people regardless of their national origins. In the case of the US, it is interesting to see how divisive the question of nationality is. Invariably there is one extreme or the other, unlike Europe where people, by and large, are less concerned, if indeed really care at all.
In many ways, Walcott - one of my favourite poets - summed it up well when he wrote: "I'm just a red ****** who love the sea/I had a sound colonial education/I have Dutch, ******, and English in me/and either I'm nobody, or I'm a nation." which seems to me to be a claim that our essential, individual identities depend upon our ability to view ourselves as a people. If so, then the people of a nation require a tale that in a plausible way describes and dramatizes their origins; without it, they will separate themselves first from their antecedents and then from one another, and, like a deracinated family, the People will perish. In Walcott's words, they will be nothing.
So why, in view of this, do so many Americans continue to - I'm sure genuinely - believe that they are part-<whichever nation>, when a strong sense of national identity is readily available to those who recognise that America's sense of self-identification is drawn from, and strengthened by, that very cultural diversity that went into its creation?
Right, that's more than enough talking from me, so now it's your turn.
Posters from the US, I'm as interested in your own views on your personal sense of national identity as I am on your thoughts regarding the greater question. Do you claim a direct connection with Europe, despite being born in the US? Are you proud to be American? Is there even a need to be proud to be part of any country?
Posters from Europe, are you proud of your national identity? Does it provide any benefit? And does it irritate you when an American - or indeed anyone for that matter - claims to be part of your country?
************************************
As a brief footnote, I notice that Scubaboard automatically blanks out certain keywords (in this case those used by Walcott in his poem about identity). For those wanting to read the complete piece, without sections being removed under the confused idea that readers are not mature enough to take them in their intended context, I suggest this page.
