If you could change one thing about dive training...

[lowwall]

Okay, I haven’t read all the posts on this thread, but have some suggestions. I’d like to see a lot more competency in basic swimming/lifesaving skills BEFORE diving instruction. That means reinstating the basic swimming skills shown in The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving book from the 1960s, or the NAUI swimming skills from the 1970s.

Amen.

PADI is so proud of being the first to drop swimming skills that they put it into their history timeline: PADI Through the Decades: The 1980s

1981: Pool Dives


In 1981, PADI became the first scuba program to have new divers use scuba gear during their first confined water/pool dives. At the time it was considered bizarre to start divers with scuba rather than freediving. Now it has become an industry standard, and the “Dive Today” approach has continued to prove itself.

I'd say it's continued to prove itself only if the goal is to to get more people certified and instead of more lifelong divers. Which to be fair was exactly the goal.

For the dive rescue courses, students should first be certified in lifesaving from one of the agencies that trains lifesaving today. Then go on to dive rescue.

Oh sure, you want graduates of a "rescue" course to be able to rescue people? Madness, I tell you. Next you'll be wanting "mastery" to mean able to do something correctly every time without a second thought instead of able to do it once after several attempts in controlled conditions.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'd say it's continued to prove itself only if the goal is to to get more people certified and instead of more lifelong divers. Which to be fair was exactly the goal.

Are you trying to say that there isn't a direct correlation between quantity and quality? 5-start Michaelin restaurants don't make a burger anywhere near the quality that McDonald's does! If McDonald's didn't make such a delicious burger, they wouldn't sell so many every year!

Oh sure, you want graduates of a "rescue" course to be able to rescue people? Madness, I tell you. Next you'll be wanting "mastery" to mean able to do something correctly every time without a second thought instead of able to do it once after several attempts in controlled conditions.

I thought mastery meant that the student didn't drown. I do see it interpreted that way sometimes.

 

[TTPaws]

Amen.

PADI is so proud of being the first to drop swimming skills that they put it into their history timeline: PADI Through the Decades: The 1980s

1981: Pool Dives
In 1981, PADI became the first scuba program to have new divers use scuba gear during their first confined water/pool dives. At the time it was considered bizarre to start divers with scuba rather than freediving. Now it has become an industry standard, and the “Dive Today” approach has continued to prove itself.
.

Where does it say PADI dropped pool skills? It just says that the order in which diving/freediving got switched. In the 1st pool session the students still have to swim & float and at the end of the sessions I devote a period of time to snorkeling/freediving.

 

[boulderjohn]

Amen.

PADI is so proud of being the first to drop swimming skills that they put it into their history timeline: PADI Through the Decades: The 1980s

1981: Pool Dives


In 1981, PADI became the first scuba program to have new divers use scuba gear during their first confined water/pool dives. At the time it was considered bizarre to start divers with scuba rather than freediving. Now it has become an industry standard, and the “Dive Today” approach has continued to prove itself.

Where does it say PADI dropped pool skills? It just says that the order in which diving/freediving got switched. In the 1st pool session the students still have to swim & float and at the end of the sessions I devote a period of time to snorkeling/freediving.

TTPaws is correct. PADI still has the same swimming requirements as outlined by the RSTC.

They did not drop the freediving instruction, either. What is different about the "Dive First" idea was that they had the first confined water scuba instruction before the freediving instruction rather than after the freediving instruction. The theory was (and still is) that getting the students on scuba ASAP helped with the psychological aspects of instructing by having students experience breathing underwater right away.

You may disagree with the approach, but no swimming requirements were removed when they changed the order in which things were done.

 

[lowwall]

Interesting. I am not an instructor. But in my OW class and three OW classes I've witnessed, all with different instructors, there wasn't a single minute of freediving/snorkeling or swimming skills instruction without scuba gear. The swim test and treading water test is still there, but nothing else.

Everything I've read about training in the '60s and '70s suggests there were hours of snorkeling and swimming skills instruction before scuba gear was donned.

 

[Jcp2]

The free dive snorkel in the pool was on dive session 4/4 for me.

 

[Dan G]

One thing to change about dive training is for instructors to have a conversation with students about who those students will chose as mentors or who will have influence on their practice as they go out into the diving world. Diving is full of all sorts of people with all sorts of opinions about what constitutes "good practice" and divers at the beginning of a learning progression, be it OW or tech, do not always know how to find good influences.

This is the case in many outdoor sports, where there is considerable variation among how people engage in that activity and view what is ethical and safe. For example, divers join clubs to meet other divers and to have access to trips but might never realize if they were to be mentored into bad habits by diving with that group.

The concept of "normalization of deviance" comes up frequently on these pages and might be a good topic to explore as students gets closer to completing whatever course they are taking. That being said, all of this is assuming that the normalization of deviance does not come from the instructor.

 

[boulderjohn]

Interesting. I am not an instructor. But in my OW class and three OW classes I've witnessed, all with different instructors, there wasn't a single minute of freediving/snorkeling or swimming skills instruction without scuba gear. The swim test and treading water test is still there, but nothing else.

Everything I've read about training in the '60s and '70s suggests there were hours of snorkeling and swimming skills instruction before scuba gear was donned.

So you've seen four classes, and that makes you an expert on the course standards? Skin Diving is the first of the Dive Flexible Skills, meaning it is up to the instructor when to teach those skills. They are part of the RSTC course standards, so all RSTC members must adhere to those standards.

Like you, my OW course did not include skin diving. That was because the confined water session was a grand total of 2 hours in a pool less than 5 feet deep. That was one of many standards violations in that course. The fact that an individual instructor violates standards does not mean the agency dropped the requirement.

 

[boulderjohn]

One thing to change about dive training is for instructors to have a conversation with students about who those students will chose as mentors or who will have influence on their practice as they go out into the diving world.

I agree. I have long said the same thing about teaching school--the most important influence on the careers of teachers is the relationships they form during their first year teaching. Those are the people who are going to "set them straight" on how things work "in the real world."

 

[lowwall]

So you've seen four classes, and that makes you an expert on the course standards? Skin Diving is the first of the Dive Flexible Skills, meaning it is up to the instructor when to teach those skills. They are part of the RSTC course standards, so all RSTC members must adhere to those standards.

Like you, my OW course did not include skin diving. That was because the confined water session was a grand total of 2 hours in a pool less than 5 feet deep. That was one of many standards violations in that course. The fact that an individual instructor violates standards does not mean the agency dropped the requirement.

No, I don't claim to be an expert. I was actually disclaiming any expert knowledge, which is precisely why I included that information.

OK, I see that "Snorkeling" and "Skin Dive" are on PADI's required skills list for OW. But how much time is actually spent teaching these skills? I've seen the course schedule for '70s NAUI and YMCA courses and more time was spent on just snorkel and swimming skills than the entire time spent in CW for the average PADI/SSI course today.