I was wondering............

[King_Neptune]

turnerjd,

I have to disagree with King Neptune here

Ok, but you never did ... I agreed with everything you said turnerjd ... You didn't saying anything that isn't common sence ... Of course it sucks, I never said it didn't.

What I am saying is gear sales isnt going to Hell in a Handbasket anymore now than before.

------------------------------------
Rick,

So, KN, when are you opening your store to show us how it's done...

You don't have to look far, as my resume is rather well known among certain groups. I've been doing this now for 9 years and where the Internet is concerned In Internet years that's Forever!

But to answer your reply, "Yes, I do have the answer"...

And it didnt pop up overnight but rather has been many years in the making ... It's bigger than any one person or store or even chain of stores. And no I'm not the only one that has the answer either.

Trust me, the answers are coming...

=-)

 

[turnerjd]

King,

I was more thinking about the sentiment that you expressed in that dive store owners have to put up with this type of behavious from customers.

Yes, to get sales they have to work at it.

Why should dive stores pay people to advise customers when they are just going to buy exactly the same equipment online? With the growth of the internet what is a small problem now will soon become a much larger one. Look at the music industry and their treatment of Napster. Napster were officially in breach of copywrite for distributing the music, but the whole thing was based on maintaining the record companies nice mark ups on CDs sold wasn't it? They were afraid of losing their control over the market.

It is for similar reasons that the larger dive manufacturers at the moment are not selling over the internet, because they want to maintain control. This includes making sure that people get the correct professional advice when they buy things. Companies like Apeks and Scubapro put into their dealer contracts certain levels of customer support / service to be maintained.

The point that Rick and I both have is that why should some-one else pay for this service, and how can it be overcome?

You suggested courses, however, there is no way that you can successfully run a course in choosing equipment. Customers want to come in, have advice and then buy (either in the shop, or cheeper elsewhere), they don't want to have a course in how to choose their own equipment do they?

Or have I just missed the point completely?

Jon T

 

[Iguana Don]

Jon,

Weather your name is Jon T. or you are a DM or male/female is not the issue. What is the issue is the advice that you give. Here as compared to the dive shop, if you give bad advice the other members will be on you like a pack of rabid dogs. On the other hand if you go into a dive shop where are the checks and balances. All dive shops will tell you their equipment is the best, that's what they are paid to tell you, here it's not that way.

ID

 

[turnerjd]

Iguana,

Yeah, I agree with you for the most part, I just used that as an example of how you never really know who / where the information is coming from.

I've never really had problems with dive shops telling me their gear is the best. I've had plenty of experiences when I've gone into my local shop and asked for specifics. They have always been prepared to get things in especially (even if I decide I don't want it in the end) as they can always sell it on its merits to someone else.

I've taken members of the uni club into shops and had people say that they don't stock things the correct shape (try fitting a BCD on someone with a 32EE chest!), when they could just as easily have sold one that was nearly good enough, and in all probability was the best she would have got.

All shops tell you their kit is the best, but a lot of them (the majority?) are consciencious enough to tell you if it isn't suitable / appropriate, rather than sell it to you regardless.

Happy divers come back and spend more money after all!

Jon T

 

[Iguana Don]

Jon/Jonna/Joanne?

BTW-What color eyeshadow do you wear?

Just curious.

ID

 

[turnerjd]

Haven't found a suitable shade to go with the gold lamae yet........

Jxxxxx T

 

[Rick Murchison]

KN,
Your reply was long on intimation and short on answer.
Hints aside, do you have a retail store?
Do you have an online store? employees, paying Rent, Utilities, Ad Valorem Tax, City License Tax, County License Tax, State License Tax, Collecting and paying Sales Tax on behalf of those three, Taxes on behalf of your employees, Workmen's comp Tax, Social Security Tax, Medicare Tax... ?

If you do, great, I'm ready to listen. If you don't, then I'm still ready to listen, but to specifics, not some vague generalizations and hints.

You could start by listing the first 25 or so of the 1000 things you say you can provide that the shops could do better. I'm sure we'd all benefit from that.
------------------
What I have suggested is that business is moving towards a separation of service and product, because folks are entering the marketplace who are willing to sell with no knowlecge of the product and with no service at margins that can only survive if there is no service. They do this by putting the product on a shelf in a place where the only staff is at the checkout counter or the security patrol, and even the store owner has no knowledge of the product other than cost. In the case of the internet store the checkout counter is manned with a bot. Mom & Pop stores - and the typical Scuba store of today is still essentially that - are depending on a shrinking client base willing to pay for service in the margins (in the higher price of the product) that is fast approaching a level that will fail to sustain them.
This phenomenon has already all but killed the neighborhood butcher, baker, and more recently your friendly computer store - an apt harbinger of things to come in the Scuba business, because computers are "information intensive" products. i.e. it takes a lot of information to use 'em with a high degree of effectiveness.

I make no claims to notoriety or to "having the answers" - I am merely sharing my observations borne of experience.

 

[Mario S Caner]

Rick,

Question... What happens when a company comes along and offers incredibly low prices and tremendous knowledge?

The collective power and knowledge of a board or club like group of divers from this site is trustworthy. People tell it like they see it. Coming from industry professionals that teach, sell and maintain scuba equiment from all over the globe, that says alot. We learn from each other as we teach each other. For example, I have very little knowledge of Beuchat Diving Equipment, because no one around here sells or uses it, but that doesn't mean they don't have excellent product. Many of our French divers will confirm that. There will always be regions in which certain types of gear is more suitable as well. Jen Michigan may know wrecks and the equipment needed to dive them safer and more efficiently than say a diver in Arizona. Don may know caves better than myself, these are friends whom offer guidance and opinion without profit, therefore we listen.

That's not the case when it comes to a local dive shop. They carry what they carry. They will try to sell you only out of the product lines that they do carry, that's the only way they put bread on the table. I've been in the same situation/predicament working for a scuba chain store here in Southern California. They require their instructors to dive and therefore help sell only what's in the display cases. From their point of view, it makes all the sense in the world. From a divers point of view it sucks! I may not want to dive one particular regulator that's in the display case, but one that is better from a different manufacturer. Well you don't have the freedom of choice there, except to not work there any longer.

I too was weary of companies selling over the internet. We've all heard the horror stories. Then comes a company like Dell computer's for example. Their products are very nicely displayed, organized and sold over the internet. They provide execellent customer service and have never let me down. After buying my first Dell over the internet I have purchased 2 more, spending well over 10 grand on their site. When I need another one I will go back to them because they offer the best product at the best price.

It's no secret. Selling over the internet reduces overhead and increases awareness through inexpensive advertising for whatever it is you are trying to sell. You can now buy cars over the internet too. We read magazines and comparitive articles, research the internet, stop by local dealers to see how the colors look in the sunlight and the sound of the door closing or the exhaust note at redline, but when offered the chance to save $2000 over the internet, I say "heck yeah, sign me up!"

I'm keeping an open mind to it all, because I see that it can be done, and done right.

 

[King_Neptune]

Ok, we are now traveling into "Pet Peeve Land" ...

why should some-one else pay for this service, and how can it be overcome?

The answer to this is so painfully obvious that I guess that's why 80% of the people out there miss it. I never said the stores should have to pay for it. But I also hope that everyone involved knows when to say when and not spend hours wasting their time supporting a product just so that someone else can get the sale. Now, no one will know all the time but I think you see what I mean.

The next statement is something that Everyone knows but they all are afraid to say it or do something about it.

The Diving Industry is run by what I like to call "The Good Ol Boy Club" ... Unless you are a "Someone" or rub elbows with the right people then it is extremely hard for you to get anywhere. There is too much back stabbing going on. Everything is "What have YOU done for ME lately" or "What Can you do for me". When is the last time any of you have gone into a dive shop and asked for something they don't carry and they told you to "Go on over to Jimmy Joe Bobs Scuba Shack, they carry those"?

Nooooo, as Don said, they will instead tell you, "Oh that stuff is crap, BUT, what I have on the shelf here is the Shnit Shnat Shniddle, Baby!"

Everyone carries the BEST and if it's cheaper somewhere else then you start hearing all the garbage like "oh, well they arent really an authorized reseller" or "That's without a warranty" or "That stuff is probably stolen" and on and on and on .... I am seriously sick of hearing that crap and I will stop them right in their tracks if and when they start those lines with me. I tell them that I am NOT interested in what someone else is doing wrong, but how can THEY do me right!

If someone can drive on down to good ol Billys Scuba Shack and buy it cheaper then maybe you need to stop marking it up 100% or more. If you can't survive like that then maybe you are in the wrong business. Or maybe you need to start using resources open to you, eh?

Example: If a shop were to really have those troubles with support then why don't they make use of resources that are already out there? THIS FORUM for example! Any dive shop with 1/10 of a brain would do well to recommend these forums to their clients on a regular basis if they wanted to help educate their clients without spending hours for nothing. Look around here for just 2 minutes and look at the knowledge and very helpful nature of most all of the people here.

But No, you wanna know what they usually do?? They start THEIR OWN forum that get 3 people signed up in a year and they waste even more time.

Why don't you see more shops and clubs and charters teaming up to make joint efforts with one another? The bottom line is there are solutions but people just aren't willing or smart enough to know how or when to use them.

My whole point is just because it's sucks doesn't mean that you give up.

=-)

 

[Rick Murchison]

Short answer: Dell lost money last quarter. So did Gateway.
Long answer: Dell lost money because the competition is willing to sell without service and pass that saving along to the customer. Dell's service is not free; it must be included in the price - nor is their warranty free. So how can they compete with the (no names here but there are plenty) of the world who sell at margins that will neither support service nor their warranty, who aren't worried about it because they never intend to provide either, but fold their internet shop after a spate of sales and open under a different name next week?
The Scuba business is a *long* way from being as bad off as the computer business, but the signs are there and it's headed that way.
-----------------
Your suggestion for a "club based business" sounds great, but who'll provide the training facilities? Will the club be willing to buy indoor pools across the country for winter training and manage them? Or would the individual instructor be expected to provide the facility? Have you talked to the arbiters of all things possible, the lawyers? How will you handle liability?
I'm not saying it can't be done, or that you shouldn't pursue it - just that the devil's in the details. e.g. did you know that if the club could be looked at as a "business" then you'd have nexus - and tax liability - in just about every county in the country?
----------------
As I factor facilities, liabilities, taxes and service costs into the equation, and consider the ability of an internet store to avoid most of these, I am drawn once again to the conclusion that given the apparent irrestible urge of the general public to "save a buck" you'll still end up having to separate equipment sales from service, and sell service in its own right.
I could be wrong, of course - wouldn't be the first time. But let's take a look in a decade and see how we do business in the Scuba industry.
Rick