I take underwater artifacts...

[Troutmaster]

The feds weren't happy at all about the various medical marijuana laws that were passed in several states but they didn't have any power to reverse or overrule them.

The feds can't reverse state law, however in the case of marijuana laws you can be prosecuted federally for marijuana violations.

As to search and seizure law, state law can provide additional protections but cannot allow for violations of a citizens rights under federal law. So Texas can pass a law stating no police officer can search a car if it is parked and that would be OK. But if Texas passes a law saying a police officer can search any car without probable cause, the US Constitution trumps and that law would be struck down.

 

[diversteve]

I am pretty sure I got certified at 12, but that was 22 years ago so I might be off. Second, I think you should refer to him as Mr. Lapenta.



You gotta be kidding me, is that seriously your argument? I didn't realize we were interupting pretend time with our responses to your post.

You do know that you're debating someone who was banned last summer right?

 

[plunder]

I applaud your efforts but your outnumbered and the illegal trade of these looted artifacts will continue.
Your mistake is labeling people without degrees in archeology as just Treasure Hunters. Educate these divers and reward them for their finds instead of punishing them. If this was done i believe you would have the majority of divers notifying the proper authorities of their finds instead of pillaging them. Until this attitude changes you will have most people gathering artifacts for their personal collections or for profit.




Here is a clip from your website...What you are saying here is: we are all assaulting submerged history and only you are capable of saving it.

Today, there is a greater need than ever before to support the work done by INA. An unparalleled assault on the world's submerged history is under way from more than simply the ravages of time or the continued theft of our heritage by treasure hunters and looters who trade in history for financial gain.

Improved technology has allowed us better access to see beneath the waves and it has become clear to all who care to look, that human activity is having a devastating impact on even the most remote and isolated of environments. Deep sea trawling and dredging has been destroying entire ecosystems and along with them the very shipwrecks that INA is dedicated to preserve. The damage done on all fronts is considerable and growing in scale. We are in danger of losing again what was already lost, only this time it will be permanent. There will be no knowledge gained from these endangered sites once the ocean's floor has been scraped clean.

 

[plunder]

In case u haven't noticed the government is flat broke which means there is no cash for shipwreck research or policing wreck sites. With the govt cuts these sites will have literally no protection and be reduced to shells.

 

[Troutmaster]

You do know that you're debating someone who was banned last summer right?

Well s#$t, I hate it when I am late to the party. I guess I win the argument then.

 

[txaggie08]

I think your being a little hard on Mel, he was a friend when I lived in Key West, so I'm a little biased the other way, but I know what you mean, it's kinda hard to do good archeology after the grave robbers have wheeled through.

Sorry to bust a buddies chops, he might be a good guy if he's away from historical wreck sites, but anyone who's ever used a mailbox on a wreck is on my perma-"poo" list.

 

[txaggie08]

Here is a clip from your website...What you are saying here is: we are all assaulting submerged history and only you are capable of saving it.

Today, there is a greater need than ever before to support the work done by INA. An unparalleled assault on the world's submerged history is under way from more than simply the ravages of time or the continued theft of our heritage by treasure hunters and looters who trade in history for financial gain.

Improved technology has allowed us better access to see beneath the waves and it has become clear to all who care to look, that human activity is having a devastating impact on even the most remote and isolated of environments. Deep sea trawling and dredging has been destroying entire ecosystems and along with them the very shipwrecks that INA is dedicated to preserve. The damage done on all fronts is considerable and growing in scale. We are in danger of losing again what was already lost, only this time it will be permanent. There will be no knowledge gained from these endangered sites once the ocean's floor has been scraped clean.

I'm not directly associated with INA, I'm an alumni of Texas A&M who has been involved in the department(call it a legal disclaimer....I don't represent them in any capacity).

Amateur archaeologists, granted they are not damaging sites, are not scorned in academia. I've never met an expert who would say "this man, even though he did a basic site survey, recorded valuable data on the layout and mapping of the site, then properly secured it against damage, is evil because he doesn't have a degree". The issue is people who excavate, pilfer, and otherwise damage wrecks. It is amazing how LITTLE of a wreck is necessary to reconstruct an accurate representation of a hull, sometimes only need a keel and a few remnants of the bilge are. When amateurs that cannot properly record, map, and study these wrecks disturb them, they often destroy the en-situ(sp?) context of the artifacts which they recover and, especially in the highly destructive Caribbean waters, accelerate a rapid destruction of a delicate wreck.

Remember, it's not WHAT's recovered that's important in archaeology, it's figuring out what's recovered and WHY it was there, what it was FOR that's important.

And yes, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who pilfers a wreck or anthropological site for personal profit and not in pursuit of science is a thieving grave robber. Anyone who condones the use of items like a mailbox are one step below them.

 

[bonehunter]

I dive the rivers of South Carolina to collect both fossils and artifacts. I obtain a license through the state to do this each year. I know this is not the same as collecting from a ship wreck, but it falls under the same category. I am not a professional and do not have a "masters degree" in anything. I have collected many, many nice artifacts and fossils and placed them in museums in the southeast. Last year I discovered a new species of protosirenian fossil that is now in the Smithsonian. I think it is unfair to call all divers who hunt treasure bad people, some of us do it for the benefit of others. I have heard the argument that everything should be left at the bottom for other divers to see? Are they the only people allowed to enjoy these treasures? I think it is better to recover the items, preserve them and have them displayed for the world to see, not just the ones who dive. I know there are those who rape and pillage sites for personal gain, but you cannot judge everyone by the bad habits of a few. I have also heard the argument that only the pros should be allowed to collect these items. I know many professionals that I deal with that are quite grateful to people like me who spend my own time and money to recover these things so they can study them. Most of the pros will tell you that due to budget constraints they cannot get funding for anything these days, much less spending money on dive excursions. 90% of all significant finds of both fossils and artifacts are made by amateur collectors just like myself. And just something to think about, my brother in law lives out west and works on a ranch. While herding the sheep or whatever he does, he discovered an Indian camp area loaded with whole pottery, points and everything else that the Indians used. He did not touch the stuff and reported it to the local university so they could come and examine the site. They told him to leave everything where it was and they would be out to do a study of the area. That was ten years ago!!! He told me the pottery has now been trampled into broken pieces by the cattle and the locals have raided the site and taken all the points etc. The university never came out. I think he should have collected the material and taken it to the university himself, at least some of it may have been saved....The same thing could be said of underwater sites, if the pros cannot find the time or money to excavate and preserve the site before the items are destroyed, why can't the amateur divers/collectors who spend their own time money be allowed to do it?

 

[FLRiverDiver]

Bonehunter....

Since I share your sentiments very closely, I feel the need to address your post. I see no reason for you to justify the merits of your beliefs/actions as they need not be justified. Those of us who have been involved in diving for artifacts, etc. understand where you are coming from and "get the flick!"

I have had run-ins with "purists" off and on over the years. I just consider the source-- and their attitudes roll off like water off a duck's back. One of my FRD-isms: The trouble with being a purist is sooner or later you make a hypocrite of yourself. True purists are zealots and I have little use for a zealot--in any arena.

Not everything I have found/collected has wound up in a museum, the ones I am familiar with are not at all short of study materials--indeed the opposite is generally true. Parts of my collections have been set up in many public and school displays. I have no guilt over not leaving said items sitting on the bottom of a river that due to visibilities ranging from a few feet to found by feel means they could only be seen by a very limited number of divers.

FLRiverDiver

P.S. I have some fond memories of dives in the Cooper and Ashapoo!

 

[Gilldiver]

Many academics seem to ignore, or want to ignore, the Steamboat Arabia in Kansas City.
Steamboat Arabia Museum

If anyone is passing through, make the stop you will like it.

And even Dr. Filipe Castro has this to say about Odyssey Marine Exploration http://shipwreck.net/index.html

“In early February I spend two wonderful days with Greg Stemm and the Odyssey
team. Greg is making an enormous effort to publish his work, and I felt that his attitude makes him a player in our field, whether we like it or not, and accepted to join him in New Orleans for the 2010's Shipwreck Track.

In the past 15 years we have been throwing tarts at each other’s faces because we don’t have anything to discuss. Treasure hunters’ work is often involved in smoke – I cannot resist teasing Pete here, and his little secret report, that only Jan-Peter “Harry Potter” Balkenende can see ).

To try to find out what THs do is difficult. If we ask too many questions they send us letters from their lawyers, or make threats, etc. In the process I learned that in the UK it is a crime “to ask malicious questions” ) I am not kidding you: a guy with a curly wig wrote me saying exactly that.

Even when THs publish reports – and some have done it in the past, which is a lot more than we can say for many archaeologists – it is difficult criticize them in a scholarly way without worsening the bad blood between us: no matter how much they try, most treasure hunters have an antiquarian approach, focusing on artifacts, while we aim at “reconstructing past human activity based…”

But now Greg has hired a bunch of competent archaeologists, who genuinely care for the underwater cultural heritage and are willing to engage in constructive brainstorming.

I do not agree with them on many instances and I strongly oppose what Odyssey does, etc., but now we all know what Odyssey does, and they have gained the right to ask archaeologists for their reports, and their ethics, and their little clans, and the legitimacy of their little clan’s mandarins, and their little secrets, and their little tribal wars…

I am looking forward to be a cheerful participant in these discussions, as always, and I think that this time we may actually be doing something constructive: we need standards (the Annex of the UNESCO Convention is a good starting point).

Odyssey is raising the standards! This is going to be funny to watch. )

Filipe”

So, the dynamic on both sides is changing and what it will be in the next 10 years as the last of the 1st and most of the 2nd generation of underwater archaeologists and treasure hunters retire with their harden attitudes will be interesting to see. But I’ll bet that a middle ground where some selling of artifacts is allowed will be found.