I found CO in tanks

[outofofficebrb]

I made a few dives in San Diego last year and for the first time in my dive "career", felt really sick or got sick during or after the dives. Other divers in my group that I was with mentioned they felt like they had heartburn or something wasn't right but not enough to pose as a problem not to dive and no one had it as bad as I did - to the point that I sat out dives. During the dives that I went on, I got extremely nauseated at depth and then post-dive. During one of the few dives I did, upon surfacing, I was vomiting quite a bit. I had headaches as well. It was awful. There wasn't a surge or current, or anything that would have made me feel this way. It was not an issue of having air in my stomach that was expanding because I know what that feels like. It stopped and I felt better when I wasn't diving. It was also not from being seasick because we were out on the boat all day and I was always fine until I dived. Unfortunately, I did not have access to a CO analyzer at the time so I don't know if it was a contributing factor or not but when I returned and shared this information with a few others, they suggested that it could have been. I had a hard time believing that this was a possibility because the dive shop and boat is very reputable but that is of course, never a guarantee....It makes me think twice about having a CO analyzer.

@TGIF was there....She can tell you how rough of a time I had.

 

[iain/hsm]

To each his own opinion, but I consider 44*C a significantly higher temperature safety margin percentage wise over standard oil and providing less frictional heat in the mechnical parts of the compressor system. While the heat of compression is still the same. Due to heat of compression I prefer the 4 stage compressor superior as it has more interstage cooling. Again the creation of heat is the enemy both for creating oil combustion contaminates and mechanical deterioration. I use Bauer K14 compressors (we have 4 of them) and they are derated to 7cfm (the original design rating Bauer had on the K14 at 5 hp, 900 rpm) . The later K14's were pushed to over 10cfm and 10-12 hp requiring much more heat dissipation. Again keep the heat down and you have eliminated 90% of the problems. A large squirrel cage blower over the compressor also helps eliminate the heat. In addition to the interstage separators there is a high presure reciever water separator before an addtional cooling coil. Then into the filter bank of 1, another separator stack, 2 a molecular sieve stack and 3 finally into an activated charcoal/hopcalite stack before reaching the tank fill section.

Now to address the term "most ingested contaminants " ; as per your scenario of filling a dive tank with air derived directly from the compressor (not a good idea as all compressors produce particulate output such as water condensate and on oil lubricated compressors oil/water condensation in small amounts), but the air itself should be the same as the air that went in unless the compressor is overheated or defective. So I am referrng to ingested contaminants as such things as car engine exhaust (lots of CO) gas engine exhaust (it could be anything running rear the air intake such as a pressure cleaner or lawnmower) or other contaminants such as fresh paint carrier evaporates or even the dry cleaner shop in the same mall as a dive shop. In today' world the air outside is not 100% clean air. The small amounts of contaminants ingested with normal 99.9% outside breathing air will be taken out by the filter system if it is properly designed. (Hopcalite and it' breathern convert the CO out of the mix). but the filters will only absorb or convert a limited amount so if you are ingesting pollted air into the compressor intake the filtration can become overwhemed or have a shortened functional life.

So 3 things. Don't run your system hot or poorly ventilated. Don't suck in poor or bad site into the compressor. And keep up the filtration system repacking.

I breath my own compressed air, so I make sure it is the best it can be. I have 47 years and over 5000 dives on my own compressed air filled tanks, and it is still fun.

For an ignition level 44C is nothing as a safety margin over a mineral oils ignition temperature.
A chicken could lay and egg at that temperature and your dog could wet up your leg on a hot day in your own backyard for all the difference 44C makes as a safety margin, you wouldn’t know the difference. This is not an opinion but a fact.
But oil ignition temperature aside for the moment let me illustrate a easy test for your K14’s
Pick one any one and drain the accumulated condensate out into a cup, then drink it.
Now I would ask tbone1004 to do the same with the condensate drain on his Rix SA-6
Maybe you guys could post the resultant photos just to make the point, an easy test for you both. No need to remove the filter stack, just drink the condensate and let us know how you get on.

Second the term “ingested contaminates” used was your in your post 74, not mine
You don’t need 47 years dude, just take four minutes of your time and do the test.
We are getting to a point of total ignorance of the real CO problem here, this car engine exhaust excuse we hear all the time from the apologists when the real culprit for the CO level is their old clunker of an oil lubricated compressors however many stages you have on it.
The real problem is from your compressor and that will be the next test you need do without all that hopcalite masking the real issue here. This is what we need to discuss.

No amount of filter towers back pressure setting cooling or fanning about is going to fix the problem that its oil from oil lubricated compressors that are producing CO and this gas fix solution of an CO analyser is frankly a red herring. It is the responsibility of air producers to provide breathing quality even at the point of filter failure.

All chemical filters by their very nature fail. So do the analysers. Get that and the whole world of diving breaths easy. Now do that simple test, drain the condensate from your compressor and drink it and let us know how you get on. Then we can discuss where that 47 years of contamination came from. Peace

 

[Johnoly]

....when the real culprit for the CO level is their old clunker of an oil lubricated compressors however many stages you have on it.....The real problem is from your compressor

You Nailed It,,Thank you !!!
I test every tank, or I won't dive it. Even on vacation.

 

[iain/hsm]

You Nailed It,,Thank you !!!
I test every tank, or I won't dive it. Even on vacation.

Thank you, however sometime I feel I could have used smaller nails.
But its a sad situation when we as divers cant trust the suppliers in our industry of the basic principle to ensure purity at all times, every time with the quality and purity of our breathing gas.

Shame on them they are a flagrant disgrace and need culling every last one of them.

 

[49north]

I made a few dives in San Diego last year and for the first time in my dive "career", felt really sick or got sick during or after the dives. Other divers in my group that I was with mentioned they felt like they had heartburn or something wasn't right but not enough to pose as a problem not to dive and no one had it as bad as I did - to the point that I sat out dives. During the dives that I went on, I got extremely nauseated at depth and then post-dive. During one of the few dives I did, upon surfacing, I was vomiting quite a bit. I had headaches as well. It was awful. There wasn't a surge or current, or anything that would have made me feel this way. It was not an issue of having air in my stomach that was expanding because I know what that feels like. It stopped and I felt better when I wasn't diving. It was also not from being seasick because we were out on the boat all day and I was always fine until I dived. Unfortunately, I did not have access to a CO analyzer at the time so I don't know if it was a contributing factor or not but when I returned and shared this information with a few others, they suggested that it could have been. I had a hard time believing that this was a possibility because the dive shop and boat is very reputable but that is of course, never a guarantee....It makes me think twice about having a CO analyzer.

@TGIF was there....She can tell you how rough of a time I had.

Interesting experience. Thanks for sharing it.

We are getting to a point of total ignorance of the real CO problem here, this car engine exhaust excuse we hear all the time from the apologists when the real culprit for the CO level is their old clunker of an oil lubricated compressors however many stages you have on it.
The real problem is from your compressor and that will be the next test you need do without all that hopcalite masking the real issue here. This is what we need to discuss.

No amount of filter towers back pressure setting cooling or fanning about is going to fix the problem that its oil from oil lubricated compressors that are producing CO and this gas fix solution of an CO analyser is frankly a red herring. It is the responsibility of air producers to provide breathing quality even at the point of filter failure.

I guess it’s like most things, it all comes down to money.

 

[StefinSB]

For an ignition level 44C is nothing as a safety margin over a mineral oils ignition temperature.
A chicken could lay and egg at that temperature and your dog could wet up your leg on a hot day in your own backyard for all the difference 44C makes as a safety margin, you wouldn’t know the difference. This is not an opinion but a fact.
But oil ignition temperature aside for the moment let me illustrate a easy test for your K14’s
Pick one any one and drain the accumulated condensate out into a cup, then drink it.
Now I would ask tbone1004 to do the same with the condensate drain on his Rix SA-6
Maybe you guys could post the resultant photos just to make the point, an easy test for you both. No need to remove the filter stack, just drink the condensate and let us know how you get on.

Second the term “ingested contaminates” used was your in your post 74, not mine
You don’t need 47 years dude, just take four minutes of your time and do the test.
We are getting to a point of total ignorance of the real CO problem here, this car engine exhaust excuse we hear all the time from the apologists when the real culprit for the CO level is their old clunker of an oil lubricated compressors however many stages you have on it.
The real problem is from your compressor and that will be the next test you need do without all that hopcalite masking the real issue here. This is what we need to discuss.

No amount of filter towers back pressure setting cooling or fanning about is going to fix the problem that its oil from oil lubricated compressors that are producing CO and this gas fix solution of an CO analyser is frankly a red herring. It is the responsibility of air producers to provide breathing quality even at the point of filter failure.

All chemical filters by their very nature fail. So do the analysers. Get that and the whole world of diving breaths easy. Now do that simple test, drain the condensate from your compressor and drink it and let us know how you get on. Then we can discuss where that 47 years of contamination came from. Peace

I assume your rant is over by now. What’s missing is you now telling us which compressor we should buy. Otherwise your sales pitch was wasted.

 

[Wookie]

I guess it’s like most things, it all comes down to money.

An Analox COclear CO monitor real time that goes in the fill system or at the discharge of the compressor is sensitive to .3 ppm and costs about a grand.

Guess how much being outed on ScubaBoard would cost.....?

Anyone who has a fill station where they are selling breathing gas for scuba diving and doesn't have a CO monitor because of money is negligent. Period.

 

[49north]

An Analox COclear CO monitor real time that goes in the fill system or at the discharge of the compressor is sensitive to .3 ppm and costs about a grand.

Guess how much being outed on ScubaBoard would cost.....?

Anyone who has a fill station where they are selling breathing gas for scuba diving and doesn't have a CO monitor because of money is negligent. Period.

$1000 doesn’t seem like much in the grand scheme of things...

 

[kelemvor]

You drain all the tanks after analysis just as a precaution in all these situations but for you to intimate that the cause was because of the Rix is stretching it in the extreme and I’m being polite.

What is your major malfunction? @Sam Miller III clearly stated in the first post about that story what the cause was. I'll quote it since you missed it and went off the rails.

Some time during the filling sessions the air direction changed to on shore sucking contaminated exhaust air into one members twin 70s,

Obviously you missed that key piece of information. He didn't "intimate that the cause was because of the Rix". He stated it was because the intake sucked in CO.

 

[iain/hsm]

Obviously you missed that key piece of information. He didn't "intimate that the cause was because of the Rix". He stated it was because the intake sucked in CO.

I’m sorry after reading about the year, the date, the town, the tribe, the border, the shopping, the drinks, the anchor, the barrels, and James Cagney’s private boat.................. do you think I missed something here?

The relivence of soap in a compressor ring any bells? Unless of course you think its for washing your hands Maybe that and you walk away. Peace.