Hydro Atlantic Incident 9-30-2012

[deepstops]

Well stated Howard.

 

[TomZ]

Hi,

I have a problem with your comments.

The industry is not at fault here, we are not at fault... With all due respect to the deceased... There is only one person who could have prevented this accident.

If in fact, the diver did dive with a high O2 content mixture and this was in fact the cause of death... then let's look at some things here.

On this wreck the shallowest point is approximately 135 feet and the deck is at approximately 150 feet.

More rules, regulations, training at the OW level wouldn't have helped here. This is NOT an Open Water diver dive. This is diving beyond recreational limits.

The problem clearly wasn't because the diver didn't have enough training, or didn't know how to recognize a nitrox tank. The problem clearly isn't because basic open water courses don't explain nitrox. The problem isn't testing for CO. The problem is apparently that the diver failed to follow one of the industries existing protocols. At this point, it's not clear which one (since the actual cause of death, and analysis of tanks is unknown), but somewhere in this accident, a diver error occurred. Most likely, the error was totally avoidable, and probably took place on land, and not in the water at all.

The solution here isn't to make more rules, teach more information at the open water level, and get all crazy... The solution here is to follow existing protocol when it comes to analyzing, labeling, verifying, and diving the proper mixture for the appropriate depth.

Again, no disrespect to the diver who died, but if people want to learn from the accident let's be realistic here.

Howard, I agree my comments don't directly tie into this specific incident. I also agree in this specific accident it appears rules, regulations and training were not the problem. The thread has covered a number of issues involving EAN and potential risks. In the spirit of learning from accidents, even tangentially, I made these comments. My apologies if that intent wasn't clear. I'm in complete agreement with you concerning adding additional rules and regulations. I firmly believe it is up to the individual to ensure their own safety. I do think minimal early (OW) training on the hazards of EAN, even for those not using EAN would be beneficial, (again not pertinent to this particular incident.)

 

[HIGHwing]

A sad loss to our community.

...I can comment on what is currently happening with beginning divers, as least as far as my own experience goes. In the past year I've taken PADI OW, Nitrox, AOW and Rescue, accumulating 75 dives. Nitrox hazards were not discussed in OW...

I think you're rather creating another thread. If what you say is true, consider reporting your instructor to PADI Quality Management. Enriched Air (PADI doesn't like "Nitrox" because that term belongs to another agency) and the basic hazards associated with Enriched Air are revelaed to PADI OW divers in the 1) Open Water Manual, 2) Open Water Knowledge Reviews, 3) Open Water Video and 4) Open Water eLearning Course. You're presented with no less than three opportunities in PADI's OW course to gain knowledge about Enriched Air/Nitrox regardless of the format selected by the student/instructor.

 

[danvolker]

A sad loss to our community.

As s 'new' diver returning to the sport after several decades of not diving, I obviously don't have the expertise to propose solutions. I can comment on what is currently happening with beginning divers, as least as far as my own experience goes. In the past year I've taken PADI OW, Nitrox, AOW and Rescue, accumulating 75 dives. Nitrox hazards were not discussed in OW. I took Nitrox within months of OW. My first non-training dives after OW certification were in Cozumel (with a private DM for the first 4 days). Thanks to SB, specifically Dandy Don, I was made aware of CO hazards prior to that trip. I have tested every tank for CO since. After taking the Nitrox class an O2 analyzer was added to my kit. I test for both CO and O2, every tank, EAN or not. If the tank (EAN) is out of my sight, it gets a label, otherwise all cylinders are tested after the reg is in place, via a restrictor on a LP (BCD) line. It takes less than 2 minutes.

The training industry did not provide me with EAN hazard information prior to taking the Nitrox class. The Nitrox class did teach me to test and label when using EAN. Information from the community convinced me to test every tank. None of my formal training involved testing for CO.

I think we can do better.

Tom, what most of my friends do is we have OUR NAMES on our own tanks, and we always know which tanks on the boat are ours--as will other people. When the tank is filled, a good sized easy to read adhesive label is affixed high on the tank near the valve, with the O2 percentage that WE ourself, saw when we analyzed--I also date this so there is no doubt that this is the current mix of the tank...if there was any uncertainty I would analyze again. There is no way the tank is going to change from this--in the shop, to how it will be on the charter boat, prior to our using it. There are no divers trying to take my tank and switch labels...that is just not going to happen....I have been diving since 72, and have never had an incident with a diver TRYING to switch tanks with me and also switching labels....worrying about this puts you in the group wearing aluminum foil on their head so that secret government agencies can't read your brain waves and thoughts.....

This was a tragedy, but as others have said, it was not caused by anything being wrong with existing protocols.

 

[TomZ]

I think you're rather creating another thread. If what you say is true, consider reporting your instructor to PADI Quality Management. Enriched Air (PADI doesn't like "Nitrox" because that term belongs to another agency) and the basic hazards associated with Enriched Air are revelaed to PADI OW divers in the 1) Open Water Manual, 2) Open Water Knowledge Reviews, 3) Open Water Video and 4) Open Water eLearning Course. You're presented with no less than three opportunities in PADI's OW course to gain knowledge about Enriched Air/Nitrox regardless of the format selected by the student/instructor.

I don't want this to turn into a thread hijack, but I don't think the few sentences (Chpt 4, pg 191-2) in the PADI OW manual, adequately discuss the hazards of EAN. It does however encourage you to acquire more training.
I've done 50 or so dives in Cozumel. The EAN cylinders can easily be mixed with the air cylinders on the dive boats, depending on the operator. Scuba Club Cozumel required labels. Others just loaded the EAN tanks on the boat.

 

[boulderjohn]

A sad loss to our community.
Nitrox hazards were not discussed in OW. I took Nitrox within months of OW. My first non-training dives after OW certification were in Cozumel (with a private DM for the first 4 days). Thanks to SB, specifically Dandy Don, I was made aware of CO hazards prior to that trip.

I do think minimal early (OW) training on the hazards of EAN, even for those not using EAN would be beneficial, )

I don't want this to turn into a thread hijack, but I don't think the few sentences (Chpt 4, pg 191-2) in the PADI OW manual, adequately discuss the hazards of EAN. It does however encourage you to acquire more training.

Interesting progression. First you say there is no EAN training in OW class. Then you say there should be "minimal training." Then you say that there should be more extensive training than there is. How much more information is needed at that level?

There was a question about this on the knowledge review, right after the question on contaminated air (CO). If you did not think you had enough information in your reading of the manual and answering the question on the knowledge review, did you ask your instructor for more information?

 

[TomZ]

Interesting progression. First you say there is no EAN training in OW class. Then you say there should be "minimal training." Then you say that there should be more extensive training than there is. How much more information is needed at that level?

There was a question about this on the knowledge review, right after the question on contaminated air (CO). If you did not think you had enough information in your reading of the manual and answering the question on the knowledge review, did you ask your instructor for more information?

I said Nitrox hazards were not discussed in OW. I'm assuming readers here have good reading comprehension . I don't think I said or inferred "extensive".

After a paragraph on the danger of using pure oxygen, the PADI OW manual states:

"The 21 percent oxygen in compressed air can also be toxic, but not until you descend well past the recommended maximum limits for recreational diving. So when diving with air within recreational depth limits, oxygen toxicity isn't an issue.

Recreational divers sometimes use enriched air (also known as "enriched air nitrox" or "nitrox") which has more than 21 percent oxygen. Enriched air has some advantages regarding how long you can stay underwater at a given depth, but you can have oxygen problems using it within recreational depth limits. For this reason, enriched air diving requires special training and some special equipment requirements (to avoid combustion problems possible with high oxygen levels); reputable dive centers will not provide enriched air without proof of enriched air certification.

So to avoid oxygen toxicity problems, don't have (or try to have) your cylinder filled with enriched air, unless you're properly trained and certified. Don't use a cylinder that's marked as being an enriched air cylinder, (again, unless you're properly trained and certified."

The Knowledge Review question asks: "State the two ways divers prevent problems with oxygen."

Do you think this scant information is adequate? Oxygen Toxicity is mentioned, but what is it, how does it effect a diver?
In light the probable error committed by the accident diver, doesn't it seem possible far less knowledgeable divers could make the same type of mistake?
Are all EAN cylinders marked as depicted in the OW manual?
Is there a way to know what gas is in your cylinder?
It's said a lot in the diving world: "You don't know what you don't know." How is more information a bad thing, when lack of it can kill you?


Boulderjohn, and Dan Volker: I truly respect and value your opinions, and I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative. I do think just a bit more information at the entry level could help avoid future accidents (again, not for this particular accident)..

 

[HowardE]

Boulderjohn, and Dan Volker: I truly respect and value your opinions, and I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative. I do think just a bit more information at the entry level could help avoid future accidents.

I disagree here too. How many accidents with nitrox have there been within recreational limits? Training isn't going to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

While we're on a tangent... how many people have died from CO poisoning whilst on scuba??


Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

 

[boulderjohn]

Boulderjohn, and Dan Volker: I truly respect and value your opinions, and I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative. I do think just a bit more information at the entry level could help avoid future accidents (again, not for this particular accident)..

What else needs to be said?

 

[danvolker]

I said there should be more training on "the hazards" of EAN. I'm assuming readers here have good reading comprehension .

After a paragraph on the danger of using pure oxygen, the manual states:

"The 21 percent oxygen in compressed air can also be toxic, but not until you descend well past the recommended maximum limits for recreational diving. So when diving with air within recreational depth limits, oxygen toxicity isn't an issue.

Recreational divers sometimes use enriched air (also known as "enriched air nitrox" or "nitrox") which has more than 21 percent oxygen. Enriched air has some advantages regarding how long you can stay underwater at a given depth, but you can have oxygen problems using it within recreational depth limits. For this reason, enriched air diving requires special training and some special equipment requirements (to avoid combustion problems possible with high oxygen levels); reputable dive centers will not provide enriched air without proof of enriched air certification.

So to avoid oxygen toxicity problems, don't have (or try to have) your cylinder filled with enriched air, unless you're properly trained and certified. Don't use a cylinder that's marked as being an enriched air cylinder, (again, unless you're properly trained and certified."

The Knowledge Review question asks: "State the two ways divers prevent problems with oxygen."

Do you think this scant information is adequate? Oxygen Toxicity is mentioned, but what is it, how does it effect a diver?
In light the probable error committed by the accident diver, doesn't it seem possible far less knowledgeable divers could make the same type of mistake?
Are all EAN cylinders marked as depicted in the OW manual?
Is there a way to know what gas is in your cylinder?

I get that there is a lot of resistance to recreational divers using analyzers, but isn't that the crux of this accident, lack of knowledge of what gas was being used?

Boulderjohn, and Dan Volker: I truly respect and value your opinions, and I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative. I do think just a bit more information at the entry level could help avoid future accidents.

An accident on a technical diving location, involves issues recreational divers do not face.

In most areas with lots of recreational diving tourists, you will see 32 % O2, or 34% O2..... While there are some individuals that will run higher percentages, these people tend to be very sensitive that these are THEIR TANKS and they would not want anyone else to have them..... Bottom line, recreational depths will normally be shallower than 90 feet. In a tourism destination, I am going to expect 99% of the nitrox pumped is 34 or 32 %...In other words, PO2 should not be an issue for the ow air diver, on a shallow recreational dive, if somehow they get a nitrox tank...

In Palm Beach, where most tourists are diving from 40 feet deep to 90 feet deep, with the average closer to 60 to 65 feet deep, again, there is no issue....BUT, where there are nitrox tanks on the boats and air tanks, most of the boats DO check any tank given to a diver with no marking on it...it is just a practice to have an analyzer on the boat, and to use it....

More important than these two tangental issues.....the accident on the Hydro had nothing to do with a lack of knowledge about the dangers or evils of Nitrox the devil gas.
The diver that died clearly knew all there was to know about nitrox and how to avoid problems like this. You could say this is a place where buddies checking each other's gear could help....you could say that the longer each of us dives, the easier it is for us to get lackadaisical about our prep for each dive......This is the real message for people to learn here.

As long as I have been diving ( since 1972), I will admit I can get lazy and treat a 90 foot dive like a swimming pool dip. I know I can freedive to 90 feet, so scuba at that depth is really feeling like a baby dive to me....but this IS a way advanced divers can get hurt. This incident "should be" a wake up call to old-time divers everywhere.