How to calculate SAC rate?

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GoBlue!:
Yep, that's what I said.... 1 atm=34 ft for fw.


yeah, i know... but my sentence goes on to explain why it makes a difference :wink:

i'll try again:

if you are diving in 33 feet of fresh water using the standard model (where 1 atm = 33 feet of SALT water) then you are actually diving one foot "shallower" than your profile will indicate.

not sure if this is worth much, but i guess every bit counts
 
GoBlue!:
Yep, I understand this. The question, really, is what constant the deco modelers use for converting pressure to depth. I.e., does the RGBM model (for example) care whether you are in fresh or saltwater?

Where's BRW.... ;)

Jim

I seem to remember from some reading I have done that the very early tables such as the Royal Navy tables and then the US Navy tables were based upon saltwater. I know that the initial starting point for the RDP was based upon the US Navy tables and as such would be using the saltwater constant.

Some computers are now allowing you to select which one you are diving in. The Mares RGBM computers allow you to select either freshwater or saltwater.

But you would have to ask BRW which one he used on the NAUI RGBM tables....

Randy
 
H2Andy:
yeah, i know... but my sentence goes on to explain why it makes a difference :wink:

i'll try again:

if you are diving in 33 feet of fresh water using the standard model (where 1 atm = 33 feet of SALT water) then you are actually diving one foot "shallower" than your profile will indicate.

not sure if this is worth much, but i guess every bit counts

Right. But no matter which conversion you use, you haven't changed position in the water column, so the pressure on you is exactly the same even if the linear distance from the surface may be a foot different than you expect. The key to being as accurate as possible, I guess, is to make sure that whatever you're doing matches whatever the developer of the decompression model used.

How about a thought experiment....

Let's suppose you're using a gauge that has been calibrated as 1 atm = 33 fsw. You take a marked rope straight down from the surface with you in a freshwater environment & stop at the 170ft marking. I believe that if you looked at your gauge at that point, you would see 165ft (6ata), since your gauge was calibrated for saltwater.

Now, your gauge can't obviously be at both 165ft & 170ft at the same time, but no one can argue that the pressure on you isn't 6ata. So the question then becomes, in your dive planning, did you consider this to be a 165ft or a 170ft dive? The answer, I believe, would depend on the model that you're using & whether the modeler associated the physiological effects of diving at 6ata with a depth of 165 or 170ft. I would assume that most models are based on depths in seawater, so the gauge reading of 165 ft is the depth that should be used.

Next, say you repeat the above but have the ability to switch your gauge such that 1atm=34ft. You take your 170ft rope down with you again & this time, when you reach the same pressure of 6ata, your gauge reads the appropriate linear depth of 170ft. So, if you go back to the same model you used on the first dive, you're now calling it a 170ft dive, and would likely have planned accordingly....

See the contradiction? The pressure on the diver both times was exactly the same, but the gauge in the two scenarios read out two different depths. So, it becomes important to know how the model was developed. I would argue that if a model is developed with depths in seawater associated with the pressures that exert the physiological effects, there is no need to change the gauge's conversion to anything but 1atm=33ft....unless the computer, on switching to 1atm=34ft, brings up a whole new "freshwater algorithm."

Jim

(I'll copy this over to the Deco forum with a link to this thread for those interested....I think it's an interesting topic. I may be completely wrong, but it'll be fun getting sorted out. ;) )
 
GoBlue!:
But no matter which conversion you use, you haven't changed position in the water column, so the pressure on you is exactly the same even if the linear distance from the surface may be a foot different than you expect.

right, the problem is that where you are and where your computer
or table thinks you are are not the same if you are in fresh
water and the computer/table has been using fsw as a "yardstick."

your depth is the same, but your pressure is not.
 
H2Andy:
right, the problem is that where you are and where your computer
or table thinks you are are not the same if you are in fresh
water and the computer/table has been using fsw as a "yardstick."

your depth is the same, but your pressure is not.

Andy-
Sorry, you were posting this as I was editing mine to add a thought experiment. Check out my previous post again...I'd be interested in your thoughts.

(Feel free to continue the discussion at the new thread, if you wish.)

Jim
 
went there... posted...

should add, that your "real" depth is the same, but your pressure is not, so
your indicated depth will not be the same.
 
tndiveinstruct1:
Some computers are now allowing you to select which one you are diving in. The Mares RGBM computers allow you to select either freshwater or saltwater.

But, it seems that from a decompression modeling point of view, it would not matter if you left the computer in saltwater mode & dove in freshwater or vice versa. The computer is simply measuring ambient pressure. Obviously if you do not make the switch, the computer will display a depth that will be off by about a ft/atm, but the decompression modeling will be the same....as we're starting to discuss in the other thread.

Jim
 
Go Blue -

I thought your first posting of this question, yesterday, was the an intriguing insight. Kudos. I've spent hours and hours reading altitude diving principles, researching air pressure formulae, building my own tables, and calculating gauge corrections. But I never stopped to think that maybe, for recreational diving, my computer doesn't need to know the true depth of water for it to accurately calculate my nitrogen uptake and outgas according to its model. That is, if we ignore surface altitude for a moment, since most of my diving is in high lakes.

I suppose I'll always want to know my linear depth, just because I'm such a numbers wh0re. But you're right to concentrate on the algorithm and pressure, with depth as a side-show.

Bryan
 
Surely the only factor affecting gas absorption and removal is the absolute pressure as opposed to what medium the body is in.

Therefore you wouldnt expect it to need to know the exact depth. The depth displayed could be incorrect if its in fresh vs salt but the deco calculations should still be the same - the depth display is for your own reference as the computer doesnt use it.

Tables use depth as a way of showing absolute pressure in a way the user can understand
 
String- Totally agree. And for tables with 10ft depth increments, I can only see it making a difference at significant depths. For example, if one put their gauge into "freshwater mode" and dove in freshwater until the gauge said 102ffw, you'd actually use the table depth of 90-100ft (since 102ffw=99fsw) instead of 100-110ft, since the tables were derived for saltwater. Now, if you had just left the gauge in "saltwater mode" & dove the same freshwater dive, there would be no confusion (since your gauge would read 99ft at a true linear depth of 102ft).

Jim
 

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