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I think you are contradicting yourself somewhat. The above section I quoted from you is basically indicating you think capitalism is ridiculous and disgusting.. but earlier you spoke favourably of being able to conduct business in whatever way you choose under capitalism. Eg:

Such as instructors and DMs who work for very little money... Capitalism is ethical, if you look at it in the purest sense (which is not what we have but my point still holds) so don't know why you seem to be indicating that they are mutually exclusive. Just curious, how far into your economics degree are you?

I think that is part of the reason people have been throwing supply and demand at you :) Your posts have been somewhat confusing...

Maybe in your personal experience. I wouldn't be generalizing from that though. ;) I don't think pay and performance are always correlated to be honest. Sometimes but I wouldn't think overall you could make a claim like that based on your own experience. n=1... ;)

Edit: How come your profile says that you are classified as an instructor? Jumping the gun a bit there? :\

To clarify, I don't think capitalism itself is ridiculous/disgusting, I think the extremely low pay of scuba instructors is ridiculous/disgusting. Granted, that is capitalism at work, however that's only one instance of it. What you're talking about is the fallacy of composition. Stating that one facet of capitalism is ridiculous/disgusting doesn't mean that statement holds true for capitalism as a whole.

Capitalism is only as ethical as the business owners who employ it, in my opinion. To answer your question, I have completed most of my lower division which basically means all my GE is done, microeconomics, macroeconomics, statistics and calculus are done as well. I'm not trying to make my posts confusing, promise. :D

I think you are correct though on pay vs. performance...to say that there's a direct correlation just can't be substantiated without doing a study on it, or finding one that has been done, and I'm simply stating it as an anecdote and nothing scientific or proven. However, I think it is generally accurate that the more you pay an employee, the happier he/she will be, so it's possible (although not guaranteed) that he/she will be more productive. At the very least, you may have better employee retention so you may make up for the extra payroll expenses by reducing training expenses from not having as many new hires.

I had no idea my profile even listed me as an instructor, seeing as that's flat out wrong. Thanks for bringing it up, I'm going to change that right now.

Just a quick public service to the many people who make this mistake:

Wow, good catch Vlad. I would not have noticed that!
 
To clarify, I don't think capitalism itself is ridiculous/disgusting, I think the extremely low pay of scuba instructors is ridiculous/disgusting. Granted, that is capitalism at work, however that's only one instance of it. What you're talking about is the fallacy of composition. Stating that one facet of capitalism is ridiculous/disgusting doesn't mean that statement holds true for capitalism as a whole.

Sure, that is why I said your post was 'somewhat' contradictory. :) Was just trying to figure out what you were getting at.

Capitalism is only as ethical as the business owners who employ it, in my opinion. To answer your question, I have completed most of my lower division which basically means all my GE is done, microeconomics, macroeconomics, statistics and calculus are done as well. I'm not trying to make my posts confusing, promise. :D

Actually I thought Smith's invisible hand would take care of the ethics ;) At least, that is how it is supposed to work in theory... :P Anyway, the US system must be different for an eco degree than in the AU. We only have intro to micro and macro, and then you pick specialties, as all subjects will have elements of both, so you are never considered to be done with micro and macro! But yea, I figured you must be early into your degree as you are too idealistic. ;p I was a hardcore socialist at the start of my undergrad (I was 15, 15yos can be naive what can I say!) and six years of study later, well, go the free market!

This is why I don't get concerned with instructors being paid crap as you are looking at an industry that has fairly low barriers to entry and exit (sure training is expensive but not compared to a college degree - at least where I come from), there are a lot of options for places you can work, and so on, yet it is still a low paid job. As I said earlier, I think this is because a lot of people would be happy to do it and just break even. It is not a job that people feel forced into, if that makes sense, so people choose it knowing full well what it will entail. And if they don't well it is easy enough for them to leave the industry... and they should have researched it better in the first place.

I had no idea my profile even listed me as an instructor, seeing as that's flat out wrong. Thanks for bringing it up, I'm going to change that right now.

Haha, mine had a rebreather listed. Think it likes to play funny buggers.
 
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Understandable, although I suppose I simply don't have the lack of ethics and morality required to do that sort of business. For instance, me and my best friend are talking about opening an ambulance company once I get my medic (he already has his), but we've both agreed that as the company makes more money, the employees will get paid more.

And what will happen is someone down the street will open a similar business, pay what the labor market dictates, and be able to undercut your fees, and eat your lunch, especially when the insurance companies decide to cut you out because he charges less. It's called competition. That's how capitalism works. That's why people need to choose careers with their heads, not their hearts. You look at what the MARKET pays, based on supply and demand, and you choose a path that will meet your economic needs. People do not operate businesses out of the kindness of their hearts; they do it to make a profit.

If you run a dive op and pay more than market rates, you'll have people beating down your door for a job. However, it will also lead more people to quit their day jobs and try a career in diving. If enough ops pay above market, even more people will follow that path. Pretty soon, all the divers are homeless divemasters wandering around South Florida, and there aren't enough divers with real jobs to keep the industry running, and it collapses. The market will always adjust to suppress aberrations. Your sig indicates you're a beginning business student - you have much to learn.
 
Capitalism is just fine as long as everyone remembers there are people involved. In the US we have taken capitalism too far, and the country is showing signs of it.

No, we don't take it far enough. This country is mostly socialist. Your employer could pay you more if he wasn't getting taxed to death to support people who won't work.

When a company lays off employees at Christmas just to get under budget so the stock holders don't bail, and the CEO takes a 20 million dollar bonus, we have a problem.

And that problem is investor ignorance - it's part of the consequences of 401K's democratizing the market - too many people trading stock don't understand how the one-time charge of a layoff artificially inflates profit figures.

We need more government regualtion of business ]practices, but first we need politicians with scruples.

We need less, and then we'd have politicians with scruples.
 
To clarify, I don't think capitalism itself is ridiculous/disgusting, I think the extremely low pay of scuba instructors is ridiculous/disgusting. Granted, that is capitalism at work, however that's only one instance of it. What you're talking about is the fallacy of composition. Stating that one facet of capitalism is ridiculous/disgusting doesn't mean that statement holds true for capitalism as a whole.

It does when that facet is a major, intrinsic component of capitalism. Value is based on scarcity, and no one gets paid to do something that a lot of people want to do, except when doing it requires a talent or skill that is scarce, as with a Lebron James.
It's not ridiculous, it's life; get used to it. And yes, it means that you can't make the big bucks doing what makes YOU happy all the time. It means you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. TANSTAAFL.

Earlier I said you have much to learn. I was wrong - you don't need more training in economics - you need to grow up and accept the clear implications of what you've already learned.

The inconsistency here lies not within capitalism, but within you. What you're really saying is that capitalism is all fine and dandy until it creates a personal conflict for YOU between what you want and what you can get. When you realize that captalism isn't a magic carpet that takes you to an enchanted land where you can play (dive) all day and be paid huge piles of money for it, suddenly you want the bus to stop so you can get off. Welcome to the real world.

It's very simple:

-Diving is fun.
-Very few, if any, people are willing to pay you at all, let alone handsomely, to have fun.
-Fun is something you PAY FOR, not something you get PAID FOR.
-You work hard at something that doesn't exactly blow up your dress, and if you do well at it, you'll get paid enough to afford fun.
-After several decades of dealing with this, we die.
-If dreams were wings, beggars would fly.

Capitalism is only as ethical as the business owners who employ it, in my opinion.

There is nothing unethical about the phenomenon over which you're getting all worked up. Ultimately, in the big picture, when everyone allows supply and demand to work, that's the most efficient and effective way to create the maximum benefit for the most people, which is the height of ethical conduct. Millions of people starved when a guy named Stalin thought he could do a better job than the market and supply and demand; was that ethical?
 
Sure, that is why I said your post was 'somewhat' contradictory. :) Was just trying to figure out what you were getting at.

Actually I thought Smith's invisible hand would take care of the ethics ;) At least, that is how it is supposed to work in theory... :P Anyway, the US system must be different for an eco degree than in the AU. We only have intro to micro and macro, and then you pick specialties, as all subjects will have elements of both, so you are never considered to be done with micro and macro! But yea, I figured you must be early into your degree as you are too idealistic. ;p I was a hardcore socialist at the start of my undergrad (I was 15, 15yos are stupid what can I say!) and six years of study later, well, go the free market!

This is why I don't get concerned with instructors being paid crap as you are looking at an industry that has fairly low barriers to entry and exit (sure training is expensive but not compared to a college degree - at least where I come from), there are a lot of options for places you can work, and so on, yet it is still a low paid job. As I said earlier, I think this is because a lot of people would be happy to do it and just break even. It is not a job that people feel forced into, if that makes sense, so people choose it knowing full well what it will entail. And if they don't well it is easy enough for them to leave the industry... and they should have researched it better in the first place.

Haha, mine had a rebreather listed. Think it likes to play funny buggers.

Well, it sounds like it's similar, we just have a barrier separating certain classes such as lower division classes being your general, introductory stuff and then upper division are the classes that are specifically focused to your major. For economics degrees in the U.S., and my degree I'm shooting for is the same, you do take introduction to microeconomics and introduction to macroeconomics but then you still keep learning micro and macro more in-depth through intermediate & advanced micro & macro, etc. so it sounds like the degrees are similar for our two countries. I don't consider myself socialist at all, to tell you the truth, because socialism is defined as government having control over the economy of it's country which I am firmly against. In fact, the U.S. government has become dangerously large and I think it needs to be scaled back significantly to restore the rights and freedoms we've lost over the last 8+ years.

The "invisible hand" principle in free markets generally does work, however, I've lived off chicken**** EMT pay for way too long to think that there's not room for improvement in EMS as far as pay goes.

I don't think the profile was glitching to be honest....whenever you click into a field with a drop down list, if you scroll down with the ball on top of your mouse, it actually scrolls through the choices in that drop down list possibly without the user knowing about it so in this case I think it was technically user error on my part.

And what will happen is someone down the street will open a similar business, pay what the labor market dictates, and be able to undercut your fees, and eat your lunch, especially when the insurance companies decide to cut you out because he charges less. It's called competition. That's how capitalism works. That's why people need to choose careers with their heads, not their hearts. You look at what the MARKET pays, based on supply and demand, and you choose a path that will meet your economic needs. People do not operate businesses out of the kindness of their hearts; they do it to make a profit.

If you run a dive op and pay more than market rates, you'll have people beating down your door for a job. However, it will also lead more people to quit their day jobs and try a career in diving. If enough ops pay above market, even more people will follow that path. Pretty soon, all the divers are homeless divemasters wandering around South Florida, and there aren't enough divers with real jobs to keep the industry running, and it collapses. The market will always adjust to suppress aberrations. Your sig indicates you're a beginning business student - you have much to learn.

Your second paragraph, outside the last sentence which is inaccurate, is spot on for the most part. Your first paragraph indicates a massive lack of knowledge of how health care, and specifically EMS, functions as far as reimbursement goes. Insurance companies do not have any control, nor do they care, about who charges what or who gets paid what; the reimbursements are set in stone and are the same for each procedure or service regardless of who the provider is. If ambulance company A charges $500, and ambulance company B charges $300, but the insurance company reimburses $250, then ambulance company B is not "cutting out" the other provider because both of them are getting reimbursed $250. Health care economics is different from normal economics...I would recommend you research it before making judgments about other people's knowledge on that subject.

Furthermore, there are several ambulance companies I can think of who pay their employees very well and they still turn a handsome profit. Fact of the matter is that two different ambulance companies can charge the same amount, in order to be competitive with each other, and one can pay its employees more than the other if they are willing to make less profit than the other. The key phrase here is less profit; you are still turning a profit and clearly increased pay should not be done unless you can still make enough profit to make it worthwhile. No offense but this is a basic concept, business isn't black and white, so I'm at a loss as to how you didn't think of this.

Lastly, just FYI, I take offense to being referred to as a business student. Business degrees don't teach jack ****; go look at the list of courses required for one of those worthless pieces of paper. There is a big difference between business and economics; one teaches generic BS about business that should be common sense whereas the other teaches scarcity and the choices people make as a result of scarcity. Economics can sometimes overlap with business but that is /not/ the focus of economics; and typically business majors do not have anywhere near the amount of mathematical rigor that economics majors do. Again, I'm at a loss as to how you didn't think of this before you inferred that economics & business are the same when it should be common sense that they're not. Perhaps this is a common mistake that is made, however, if you're going to try to debate a topic then I would think it would make sense to know the topic beforehand.

No, we don't take it far enough. This country is mostly socialist. Your employer could pay you more if he wasn't getting taxed to death to support people who won't work.

And that problem is investor ignorance - it's part of the consequences of 401K's democratizing the market - too many people trading stock don't understand how the one-time charge of a layoff artificially inflates profit figures.

We need less, and then we'd have politicians with scruples.

Well said. The ironic thing is that people think more taxes mean our government will be able to afford more programs to keep people from working and baby them from the cradle to the grave...the opposite is true. Supply side economics has plenty of graphs and studies to show that tax revenue decreases when tax rates increases.

Furthermore, I agree with bfw that we need less politicians and less government. I'm simply terrified at the notion that some people think we need more government; this country has endured enough damage from the incompetence of government in the last decade to suffer much more. I hope that the next president will understand the aforementioned and scale down the size of government....I'm not going to hold my breath though. :shakehead:
 
... Millions of people starved when a guy named Stalin thought he could do a better job than the market and supply and demand; was that ethical?
No it was not, but then neither was Carnegie, Rockefeller, Mellon, Pullman, etc. They bought and sold the government, the army, the cops to suit their own bottom line at everyone else's expense.

We need to protect ourselves from the government and we need the government to protect us from big business, its a fine line and a delicate balance that will inevitably swing one way and overshoot, correct and swing the other way and overshoot, and so on, and so on. That way of systems, mathematical and natural. When you have to worry is when it appears to be headed in one direction with such a large vector that you begin to doubt if the attractor is strong enough to bring it back in.
 
Well, it sounds like it's similar, we just have a barrier separating certain classes such as lower division classes being your general, introductory stuff and then upper division are the classes that are specifically focused to your major. For economics degrees in the U.S., and my degree I'm shooting for is the same, you do take introduction to microeconomics and introduction to macroeconomics but then you still keep learning micro and macro more in-depth through intermediate & advanced micro & macro, etc. so it sounds like the degrees are similar for our two countries. I don't consider myself socialist at all, to tell you the truth, because socialism is defined as government having control over the economy of it's country which I am firmly against. In fact, the U.S. government has become dangerously large and I think it needs to be scaled back significantly to restore the rights and freedoms we've lost over the last 8+ years.

Ahh interesting. My favourite subject was always international trade, so that is what I ended up focusing in. :) What about you? Decided yet?


The "invisible hand" principle in free markets generally does work, however, I've lived off chicken**** EMT pay for way too long to think that there's not room for improvement in EMS as far as pay goes.

<snip>

Health care economics is different from normal economics...

Hmm, I would agree with this. The healthcare market should not be treated as a competitive market, because it is far from it. You have an industry that has huge barriers to entry and exit, monopsonies and monopolies, derived demand for its services, poor consumer awareness about medical issues and so on. So I think in the case of the health system I don't mind a bit of government intervention as non- or poorly competitive markets warrant that (IMO anyway - I think the same about the military and education).

Lastly, just FYI, I take offense to being referred to as a business student.

:rofl3::rofl3: Ok so same attitudes in the US too then.

Well said. The ironic thing is that people think more taxes mean our government will be able to afford more programs to keep people from working and baby them from the cradle to the grave...the opposite is true. Supply side economics has plenty of graphs and studies to show that tax revenue decreases when tax rates increases.

The Laffer curve covers it :) Or at least gives the general idea of what you are referring to, even if it falls down on a few occasions.
 
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Ahh interesting. My favourite subject was always international trade, so that is what I ended up focusing in. :) What about you? Decided yet?

Honestly, I'm not sure yet...my emphasis will be in managerial economics, which is ironic since that's also the name of the degree, but I'd have to say that I'm leaning towards supply side economics. Any specialty that focuses on the harmful effects of taxes on the economy gets my vote since I hate taxes. :P we'll see though, macroeconomics interested me a lot too.

Hmm, I would agree with this. The healthcare market should not be treated as a competitive market, because it is far from it. You have an industry that has huge barriers to entry and exit, monopsonies and monopolies, derived demand for its services, poor consumer awareness about medical issues and so on. So I think in the case of the health system I don't mind a bit of government intervention as non- or poorly competitive markets warrant that (IMO anyway - I think the same about the military and education).

Right, health care is certainly not your run-of-the-mill competitive market. Hell, a big part of the reason I decided to stay in EMS is because health care will always be needed so therefore you won't have nearly as unpredictable of a business cycle. More often than not, sectors of health care would benefit from more competition, or at least better service, so an ambulance provider that comes into the picture and starts treating people well will benefit because most of the big ambulance providers are ******** to both their employees and their customers...people are getting sick of that. The largest ambulance provider in the US, AMR, has gotten kicked out of countless counties for precisely that reason.

:rofl3::rofl3: Ok so same attitudes in the US too then.
Wouldn't have it any other way. :P screw being compared to some business retard who took basic arithmetic, a class in managing for retards, and got a degree for it.

The Laffer curve covers it :) Or at least gives the general idea of what you are referring to, even if it falls down on a few occasions.

Ahh ok, I haven't covered that yet to the best of my knowledge. I'm sure I will though. :D

No it was not, but then neither was Carnegie, Rockefeller, Mellon, Pullman, etc. They bought and sold the government, the army, the cops to suit their own bottom line at everyone else's expense.

We need to protect ourselves from the government and we need the government to protect us from big business, its a fine line and a delicate balance that will inevitably swing one way and overshoot, correct and swing the other way and overshoot, and so on, and so on. That way of systems, mathematical and natural. When you have to worry is when it appears to be headed in one direction with such a large vector that you begin to doubt if the attractor is strong enough to bring it back in.

Very well said.
 
actor, radio dj, dive instructor....;)

Adding "the need to make money" to the equation frequently equals hatred for the thing you once loved.

jmho;)

AGREE 100%! I know a lot of airline pilots who feel the same way. I stayed a private pilot & I still love it!!!
 

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