How close to your dive buddy...

[cascas]

Cascas ... perhaps before providing answers to the OP's question you should consider the forum you're responding in, and the experience level of the person who asked the question.

I seriously doubt that this person wears doubles, or dives in caves ...

... Bob (Grateful Divr)

You don't have to dive caves or wear doubles to train yourself in knowing your gas consumption and doing the other things I mentioned.

Bottom line is way to many divers blindly follow guides and never check gauges. Doing only that prevents problems. I simply cannot understand getting yourself into a situation where all of a sudden you have no gas left when there are solutions that simple available. There is just no excuse for that happening other than not knowing what you're doing...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You don't have to dive caves or wear doubles to train yourself in knowing your gas consumption and doing the other things I mentioned.

... of course not. But that wasn't the question ... nor does it help the person asking to know what the answer is.

Bottom line is way to many divers blindly follow guides and never check gauges. Doing only that prevents problems. I simply cannot understand getting yourself into a situation where all of a sudden you have no gas left when there are solutions that simple available. There is just no excuse for that happening other than not knowing what you're doing...

I agree ... gas management is a topic that I'm somewhat familiar with ...

Understanding Gas Management

... but again, that doesn't address the OP's question.

The reality is that whether or not it shouldn't happen, OOA does happen ... and people need to be prepared to deal with it. Appropriate buddy skills help them be prepared ... and that is the topic of this thread ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cascas]

OOA does happen

exactly why i wrote what i wrote.... poorly educated divers or careless divers will get OOA... Those who pay attention to detail and execute proper procedure an most important of all THINK will probably not...

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

exactly why i wrote what i wrote.... poorly educated divers or careless divers will get OOA... Those who pay attention to detail and execute proper procedure an most important of all THINK will probably not...

... and sometimes well educated or careful divers will get OOA. "Probably" isn't good enough ... we're all human, and therefore susceptible to occasional operator error.

I don't disagree with your premise ... but I don't think it's appropriate to the question that was asked ... particularly in the context of the majority of the people who read this forum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Mike]

Those who pay attention to detail and execute proper procedure an most important of all THINK will probably not...

until they do

That makes it close enough to non-existent for me....

famous last words

 

[boulderjohn]

I just want to bring up an issue that was only briefly mentioned earlier--visibility.

Early this past fall I met someone for a local dive. We thought the visibility would not be great, but we were shocked at how bad it was. We both had very high power lights, and that was really all we could see of each other. To see our lights we had to stay close enough that we bumped on several occasions.

The problem with poor visibility is that it is easy to lose buddy contact. On an occasion earlier this year my buddy suddenly took off at high speed. He got a quick lead on me and it took all I could do to get close to him again. He was almost out of my sight until I was able to get close, and that was when he came to a stop. When he saw me he seemed bewildered. When we talked later he said that he had looked at his gauges, and when he had looked up, he had seen a diver's fins in front of him. Thinking they were mine, he had taken off in pursuit, not realizing that I was right next to him at the time.

When visibility is poor, your concern is separation more than the distance you can swim when OOA.

 

[SDAnderson]

With my setup (DIR/Hogarthian) :
Debris in a dip tube has to happen twice before becoming a problem.
Malfunctioning SPG is not very likely to cause a big problem if your starting tank pressure and gas consumption is known.
Taskloading and narcosis... these are very easy to recognize and prevent. If those get you in trouble you have crossed your comfort zone border a great deal.

That makes it close enough to non-existent for me....

What is the worst “worst case” failure that can be envisioned?

Here is mine: A main spring failure in a 1^st stage will result in the closure of the valve and no more/none/zero/zip/nada air getting through. It isn’t common – actually it’s very rare – but it does happen. Should you encounter this concentrated dose of chlorine while swimming in your chosen gene pool, you’ll get a small fraction of a breath as you breathe down the 140 psi in the LP hoses but the normal “reservoir” of a full breath or so won’t be available because the HP hose is on the upstream side of the valve. There may not be any warning prior to a spring failure and the chances are good it will happen just after you’ve exhaled.

When considering whether or not the possibility for an event like this to occur to you is too small to plan for, remember that a decision not to be prepared means that you probably won’t survive an encounter with it. Part of gas management is being aware of and planning for all contingencies, eh?

So, how far can you swim, comfortably, with no air in your lungs? Cut that distance to allow a little bit of time for “@#$%^!” to travel from your forebrain to your fins and even more time for your buddy to react to your ever-so-calm presentation of the OOA signal, disentangle his octo from his light cannon/camera pig-tail and hand it to you, upside down. Subtract even more distance for current/bad viz/inexperience. If your buddy is farther than that, I’d say he’s too far and certainly too far for comfort.

If your buddy/dive master/instructor tells you the chances are too slim to worry about, you have now identified a more immediate problem than contingency planning.

New divers should keep their buddy within one kick – half a kick cycle. Experienced divers in ideal conditions might stretch that out to a couple of kick cycles. An old tech diver adage applies to this situation: If you need one, take two. Having a fully redundant gas supply is an excellent solution to the problem.

 

[DivemasterDennis]

As is clear from the thread, the answer can vary with conditions and visibility. The factors I think are important in answering the question can be stated this way: 1) safety, 2) comfort, and 3) affection. I want to stay close enough to my buddy that they know where I am all the time and I know where they are, and that is in close enough proximity to assist in any way needed. I want to be comfortable and not crowded, but I can feel discomfort when a buddy stays too far or is oblivious to my existence. As for affection, I stay closer to my wife than I need to because I want to be close to her. If she is feeling the same toward me at the time, then it works out great. I should also note that I stay closer to "new" or "insta" buddies than to buddies with whom I have scores of dives, and whose habits and skills and competence I know and am comfortable with. Remember, its not just distance between divers that makes a buddy team, it is awareness of the location and presence of one another as well. A diver who is 15 meters away is not being part of a buddy team. 10 meters is marginal. 2 to 5 meters is my comfort zone.
DivemasterDennis

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I developed an entire presentation on buddy skills and Bob has great stuff on his site dealing with the subject. I spent 6 months or so looking into diver fatalities where buddy skills, or more correctly, lack of them did or seemed to be a factor in a number of deaths. Doing a root cause analysis led me to the conclusion that poor buddy skills and buddy separation should not happen but it does. And while there are some cases among experienced divers who got careless and the fecal matter hit the fan, a shocking number of cases came from divers who were never really taught what the buddy system was and how to apply it.

It was talked about in the classroom and the books but in the pool and on OW checkouts all that went out the window. Students did not know who their buddies were, instructor never paired them up and enforced those pairings, and worst of all on OW checkouts led them around single file. In a number of cases they could not even see the instructor.

SO it comes as no surprise that questions like this get asked. And as long as we have weekend certs and short courses they will continue to be asked. Right now I am working on another aspect of the buddy system and prepping a presentation on it. This is dealing with diver communication and I see it as another area that does not get the attention it deserves in classes.

My first one got included in my first book. This one may end up in the next one. But it will end up being part of all the classes I teach.

 

[eponym]

[snip]Doing a root cause analysis led me to the conclusion that poor buddy skills and buddy separation should not happen but it does. And while there are some cases among experienced divers who got careless and the fecal matter hit the fan, a shocking number of cases came from divers who were never really taught what the buddy system was and how to apply it.
It was talked about in the classroom and the books but in the pool and on OW checkouts all that went out the window. Students did not know who their buddies were, instructor never paired them up and enforced those pairings, and worst of all on OW checkouts led them around single file. In a number of cases they could not even see the instructor.
SO it comes as no surprise that questions like this get asked. And as long as we have weekend certs and short courses they will continue to be asked. Right now I am working on another aspect of the buddy system and prepping a presentation on it. This is dealing with diver communication and I see it as another area that does not get the attention it deserves in classes.
My first one got included in my first book. This one may end up in the next one. But it will end up being part of all the classes I teach.

Love it. My OWD courses stress (and I drill) buddy gear-up, buddy planning, buddy awareness from day one. I treat the pool as a real dive site with particular demands each session (lake, river, panga, liveaboard, etc.). I have come to see any one student donning or removing fins without buddy assistance, even in the pool, as a personal failure on my part. What is done in the pool will be done at the beach on the first dive trip.

Last night was the first night on scuba for a brand-new OWD class. When we had finished learning and drilling beginning skills, I told the teams (students) that they were free to swim at their leisure, but to stay with their buddies. One young woman asked me, "How close should we stay?" which I never get tired of hearing. Remember, this is a clear indoor pool. She will make an outstanding dive buddy.