Highend consumer lowe end pro vidcams

[TheAvatar]

I thought this would be an informative post on its own, especially to someone who really wants to make a professional looking underwater (or above water) movie.

I made this reply to someone asking about expensive vidcams with good DSC (digital still camera) functionality:

Looking vidcams that double as high quality digital still cams is a waste of time and money. Similarly, looking for digital still cams that are great vidcams is also a waste.

CCDs work for both video and still, but CCDs are built with one function in mind. They can do the other function with little effort, just not very well because:

1. digital still cams do not have the storage capacity, controls, image processing, or buffers to do movies long and right.

2. vidcams do not have the resolution, controls, or image processing to do digital stills in good quality.

The cameras have the other feature because its simple to add on. Just don't expect spectacular results.

You will not find any digital cameras with more than 2.1MP for still (which comes out to 1.9MP usually) and they are all 1CCD cameras (TRV80 for example).

This all being said, let me recommend the two best cameras in the $1600-$2000 range.

Canon GL-2
Sony DSR-PDX10

These miniDV triple CCD high quality cameras. Both are fantastic cameras and are of the quality required to make a successfull low/no budget indepenendent film.

I'll run the features real quick:

Canon GL-2 (runs $1750-$2200 depending on where you shop)
0.25" HAD pixelshift CCDs (410KP/380KP) X 3
1.7MP digital still (1448x1128) using SD or MMC cards
4:3 native
30fps progressive
20X f/1.6-2.9 Canon L zoom (39.5mm-790mm f/8 max)
58mm screwmount filter size
miniDV SP and LP formats
min Lux 6
2.5" 200KP color LCD
400L 180KP color EVF
built in ND filter (good for above water)
39.5oz

Sony DSR-PDX10 ($1600-$2100 depending on where you shop)
0.21" advanced HAD interline transfer CCDs (1070KP/690KP) X 3
1.4MP digital still (1152x864) using memory sticks
16:9 NATIVE *AND* 4:3 NATIVE!
12X f/1.6-2.8 Sony zoom (49-588mm for 4:3) (41-492mm for 16:9 & Digital still) f/8? max
37mm screwmount filter size
miniDV SP and miniDVCAM SP
min Lux 7
3.5" 246KP TFT touchscreen LCD
500L 180KP B&W EVF
33oz with XLR microphone box removed (37oz /w XLR gear)

Contact me for an excel spreadsheet givng a much more detailed comparison.
Otherwise here are the advantages of each camera summarized.

GL2: better low light performance, bigger CCD area, better lens, better manual exposure control, better special features, built in ND filter, 30p mode, better zebra

PDX10: 16:9 native AND 4:3 native, detatchable XLR audio for above water work, DVCAM, better EVF and LCD, smaller and slightly lighter, less expensive

I don't know about housings for either camera.

Both cameras will probably require a wide angle adaptor (expect to pay $125-$200) and maybe some macro diopter filters ($50-$75 for a set).
Both cameras have optical image stabilization and do 540 lines of resolution. I should mention that the DSR-PDX10 is the professionalized and juiced up version of the DCR-TRV950.

WHATEVER YOU GET, MAKE SURE IT IS A miniDV VIDCAM!

 

[Scubatooth]

avatar

good way to start a new thread, let me add some of my own views and experinces

both cameras you list are very good , but good housings for the canon dont exist because sony has a strangle hold on the market. by a good housing i mean one with electronic controls via the LanC port contrller. the housing with manuel controls are ok but i need to have access to all of them the whole time especially the iris control and ND filter

the pdx 10 is more advanced version of the trv 900 (they both came out at the same time, but with the 16x9 ccd and has the microphone boom attachment on top, but it is a much smaller camera. as for video quality its in the same range as the GL2 but needs some manuel work to get the colors set right, were as the GL2 is very close in auto mode

the GL2 is a very good camera and is easy to work with and all of the menus are easy to get to (no more then 3 menus deep to get to a item)

FWIW in a recent test of the sony Pd150, Canon Xl1s, and Gl2 the canon GL2 came out on top followed by the XL1S and the PD150 . the gl2 came in first because of the neutral color rendition and very little changes needed for good balance and had better low light rendition then the PS150 and 1S. the XL1S was ok in auto but had a diffinent red shift and was a little soft. the PS150 didnt fair to well because some of the fetures in the other cameras arent on the GL2, i dont remeber which ones but they were major ones (go check DVInet.com for the review under the gl2 section, about a week old).

the one feature i love is the 30fps progressive mode(called "Frame mode") that is good for the film look in a digital form. the GL2 does do 16x9 but it is electronicly done , but from the recent tests its just about on par for resolutions as native 16x9, but i havent tested that personally (im a broke college kid cant afford multiple cameras)

as for picture resolution you are right they arent designed for it but the canon is closer because it comes closer the ideal for a 4x6 print (but even those need some work). hopefully in the version of the GL they will include a Digic processor chip so that the processing will be better. If anything the pcitures they take are good for email. anotehr wish item would be that there be smpte bars and tone so that i can match multipule audio tracks in sequence

if i think of anything else i will post it

 

[TheAvatar]

I agree with your assesment mostly I think.

60i/30p is nice... sony only does 60i/15p

Do you really truly find the GL2's electronic 16:9 is equal to the native 16x9?

It is a shame there is no housing for the Canon. So is there a good housing for the PDX10? How much?


XL1s and PD150 don't really enter into this I don't think. They are both awesome, but, bigger, heavier, and more expensive than most people need underwater... did you see that sweeeeeeeeeeet Panasonic that does 60i/30p/24p? Oh man that camera rules! That is *the* camera for peopel make low budget films with the intent to transfer to film... works even better than using a PAL camera because it does EXACTLY 24!


As for the synch issue... thats what clackboards are for!!! :-D

I think the PDX10 has a better timelock system so you won't get drift compared to the GL2.

The GL2 does have that external XLR attatchment.

I think the superior choice (if you are above water and have an extra man) is USB-XLR (they have these for $150) + laptop... really cool.... or barring that... a MDR with level control.

 

[Scubatooth]

from what i can see from the footage i have seen it is very good and this was being viewed on a HDTV and on a projector, the only timei could tell it was electronic was in low light scences in the shadows because of some very funky artifacting or shading but then again this was being projecct on a 30 foot wide screen so it could have been anything, on the HDTV it looked perfect to me

as for the XL1s you are right i was just using that references from the test that was run, as for the pd 150 its really only about 2 inch long and maybe a little heavier then the GL2 but then again its almost 3k depending on where you get it.

as for the time lock on the PDX i didnt know that, and i didnt think the gl2 had the drift problem because thats the first time i have heard of that

i believe amphico and sea and sea making housing for the PDX, as for the canon it would be nice if we could convince them to make a housing for it , and with the controls i need access to (ev dial, nd filter, custom key, access key, and all of the backside contorls by the evf.


post or send me a link about the usb xlr and the contorl board set up because that would be very intresting

one thing i would like to do to modify a housing or something would be to either integrate one of the sound channels into a reciever for a FFM comms set up so that i could either narrate the footage im shooting(or maybe not probably wont want to tie up a channel for notes or narratation since i dont want to here me breathing all through the video). Or have a recorder of some sort that would be attached to a FFM setup so i could do that same, and then in post integrate the notes where i would have a chance to do them right.

FWIW

 

[TheAvatar]

with these cams, you could record one channel direct from the cam, the other from the coms when you figure out how to build it up. I have not heard of drift issues either... it's prolly only a worry if you are recording nonstop on full length LP miniDV.

As to the PD150... you can get the bastardized version, VX2000, without some of the sound toys for around $2.1K. I think there are some other differences... the VX2000 doesn't do DVCAM I don't think.

The USB XLR I thought was the best was the MobilePre:
$150

http://www.audiomidi.com/common/cfm/product.cfm?Product_ID=3687
http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--MDOMOBILEPRE

2 channel XLR stereo inputs... variety of other inputs
SNR and dynamic range of 91dB
THD (whatever that is) 80dB
bitdepth/sampling rate 16bit/48khz

The thing offers phantom power to both XLR chans if needed.
It offers a physical preamp and level control with realtime feedback and electronic level control on the laptop screen.
It's easy as hell to sycnh. Firstoff... your sound is on the computer so no need to transfer for editing. You either use a clackboard or just match up some other audio spike to synch it up to the camera recording... OR... you can output the timecode from the camera and input it to 1/2 of one of the 2 channels if you don't mind having the laptop tethered to the camera.

The only disadvantage of this system is that you have your two boomops tethered together and might need an extra person to operate the laptop (which can be a good thing... dedicated guy to watch the levels).

The other cool thing is that if you have a laptop there with firewire and a good screen... well... there is yoru editing monitor for after the shot or during! Or even before for composition.

There are a few other models... some with more channels... some use firewire... they are more expensive and were overkill for what I *was* helping put together (the film fell through).

If you want more, I think I downloaded a mobilepre PDF manaul i could send you.


On the PDX10... what gives with Sony's undwhelming marketing campaign? Someone said they didn't want to market it much because it matched the VX2000 and came close to the PD150. All I know is that no store I went to carried it even though they had XL1s, GL2, PD150 and VX2000! Detailed info on it was very hard to find. Even calling Sony was of little help.

 

[drbill]

Does the Canon fit into the Top Dawg housing by Light & Motion/Backscatter? That $800 housing is a basic one but is supposed to work with Sony TR/TRV and newer Canon cameras.

I have used several single CCD (Sony TRV17 currently) and three CCD (Sony TRV900, TRV950) cameras underwater. I for one don't notice the difference in quality. In fact many of my viewers who shoot with three CCD cameras are surprised at the quality from my single CCD, often better than their results.

Your mileage may vary but it isn't worth the extra $1,000. I'd rather put that into a backup camera.

Dr. Bill

 

[TheAvatar]

And what are they judging your footage on? An interlaced TV or a 500 line editing monitor or HDTV?

 

[Scubatooth]

the footage wasnt mind it was shot by a person locally who i dont know but work for camptv (they do promo work for camps around the country)

i probably should have been more clear, it was viewed on a 15 in monitor (Sony, but dont know which monitor) the HDTV and then the DLP Projector (w/ capabilities of everything from normal pal/ntsc , HDTV, to 1600x1200 for normal presentations.

is that more clear ?

 

[TheAvatar]

I was replying to drbill... I find it hard to believe that a 1CCD would be better than a 3CCD of equal age.

1CCD have color problems and image artifacts.

That being said, 1CCD cams can put otu some kickbutt quality.

 

[onbelaydave]

I know this is an old thread, but Ikelite makes a really sexy looking housing for the GL2 now; check Ikes' site or B&H.
I got my camera about a month ago to take advantage of the rebate Canon was running and am sold on the stunning footage I've been getting. Now to get the housing and still have enough money left for a trip to use it on !