Heavy Thinking ?

[donooo]

Heavy Thinkers, Help me out ?

About 5 years I "helped" a couple of friends with a goal of climbing 2 of the 3 tallest volcanoes in Mexico. In the attempt on the "White Lady", they didn't make it. One of the climbers became sick, they had to turn back. He claimed indigestion, it sounded to me like altitude sickness. A week later they clmbed the highest peak in Mexico, no problem. I look back at their aclimation or lack of and wonder. The problem has to do with oxygen, pressure and altitude.

So two years ago I take up scuba diving. Most of the "dangers we read about have to do with problems of depth and we talk about pressure and oxygen and nitrogen.

So mountain climbing books don't cover scuba diving and scuba diving books don't cover climbing. But are these two problems related ? Has anyone seen any literature that might relate the two topics? Can they be put on the same "chart" or "graph" ? Does anybody else daydream about this "stuff" ?

Just thinking,,,,,to much free time.

don O

 

[syruss32]

I don't know the technical details but I can add some fuel to your thinking process.

I have gone to the top of Pikes Peak(14,700ft or so) about 20 times or so in Colorado. If I drive up and drive down I tend to feel fine (note when driving up and down pikes peak you are going pretty slow if you want to live). I have never felt any problems on the driving trips (Probably 5 or so)

But when I take the Cog Train up which is faster and more vertical on the way down I start getting headaches. I have spoken to lots of other riders that have had the same problem, on the way down they get headaches.

This has to be do to changes in altitude and/or oxygen related from less oxygen at the summit. I have also seen the effects of this on the elderly. They often warn elderly people to hold onto rails and go really slow at the top. I have seen 2 pass out and 1 fall down. One of the 2 that passed out was air-lifted off the mountain by a flight-for-life chopper.

So there seems to be some correlations here!

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear Donooo:

Altitude Mountain Sickness (AMS) is a condition of low pressure and low oxygen. It is my understanding that it cannot be mimicked by hypoxia and sea level. In its most critical form, it consists of two conditions: high-altitude pulmonary edema or high-altitude cerebral edema. The common symptoms of altitude sickness are headache, shortness of breath, sleep disturbances, and sometimes nausea. About 20% of people display these symptoms.

High-altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) and high-altitude cerebral edema (HACE) include the symptoms of AMS as well as additional, less common, symptoms developing after one to four days above about 2700 m (about 9000 ft). Symptoms of HAPE include strong coughing that produces a frothy, sometimes blood-tinged, sputum while symptoms characterizing HACE include staggering, confusion, and hallucination. Unfortunately, people with advanced HAPE or HACE can die within a few hours and should be taken as soon as possible to a lower altitude. Improvement is usually rapid. Supplementary oxygen and pressurization in a chamber or Gamow bag can also be helpful. Because pressurization is of value, there has been speculation that bubbles are involved. One can administer 100% oxygen at altitude and it as not as effective as air in the Gamow bag at the same altitude.

Dr Deco

 

[donooo]

Thanks Doc, but that's the answer I get out of a climbing book. Are you saying I need to read my diving stuff again and draw my own conclusins. I was wondering if they tie together and if there is any literature. I can't be the first "original" thinker.

tnx don O

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear Donoo:

The problem with my answer (and the answer in the diving books) is “how can the little added pressure in a Gamow bag really help?” Does that mean that there are gas nuclei or bubbles in the body that are released and/or grow in a climber? We certainly “know” that there are tissue micronuclei in divers and in aviators, but what about the very slow ascents of climbers? The pressure changes are very small and, according to the Young-Laplace law, that would require very large nuclei - - - they would not even be micronuclei.

This problem does not admit to an easy answer.

Dr Deco

 

[Texass]

Excuse my ignorance, but I've never heard of a Gamow bag before.

What does it do etc.?

Thanks,

 

[randyjoy]

It's a monoplace portable hyperbaric chamber for the treatment of AMS. Invented by Rustem Igor Gamow. It can simulate a pressure drop of up to 7,000 feet, but that is not near enough to do anything for us.

See http://spot.colorado.edu/~gamow/research/bag.html

 

[Texass]

How long do you have to remain in it to overcome the altitude sickness? Do you leave the victim in the bag until you descend to a lower altitude or are there tables that are followed?

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear Texass:

Not being versed in the art of mountain climbing, I must plead ignorance of how long one remains in the Gamow bag. I would suspect that the individual remains until symptoms of cerebral or pulmonary edema are abated. If one had a sled and the terrain permitted, I guess the whole bag with the climber could be transport down the mountainside. I do not believe that climbers have this sort of transport however. People have been airlifted, possibly bag and all.

The treatment is not performed with any precalculated tables. Even treatment tables for divers are extended if sufficient recovery is not noted.
Dr Deco