Heart Association changes CPR guidelines

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Wildcard:
I have seen BPs in the 90s on a few codes but 50-60 is more the norm, enough for perfusion and palpable pulses.
I would have to wonder why they didn't just jump all the way into continous chest compressions? From what I have read it takes 10-15 seconds of compressions to bring the static pressure back up after stoping for breaths that 9 times out of ten end up in the belly anyway.
Where the air ends up depends on how the airway is maintained. Once an ET Tube is placed you're guaranteed to put every breath in the right place. But once again this illustrates the difference between professional and layperson CPR.
 
Wildcard:
You have a magic monitor that shows you how well your chest compressions are being done? Every monitor I have seen in over 20 years of EMS just shows electrical activity or lack there of. And to think I have been wasting time palpating pulses to check effectivness.
Actually, with the LP-12 Leads II AVL and AVF will give a compresion waveform. But ETC02/capnography is now the standard in identifying the presence of spontaneous circulation in PEA arrest situations, and how effective accompanying chest compressions are by producing waveforms and measured levels via the ET Tube. Only effective compressions and adequate ventiulation will provide consistent ETC02 readings, but will do so in ANY ryhthm.
 
PairofMedics:
Certificate? We issue cards, not certificates for CPR. Maybe you are refering to your dive instructor. In which case he is wrong in regards to the good samaritan laws accross the country. Even I, when off duty, am covered by the good samaritan laws. And as a CPR, First Responder, EMT and Paramedic instructor this is a subject I have particularly researched since it is a common and valid question that arises in most of my classes. This is an area of both civil and criminal law where the accusing party must meet the full burden of proof before any charges can be FILED...never mind prosecuted. Meaning they would have to convince a judge that you intentionally and further injured the victim, and have multiple independent testimonies to prove it. And even then the judge is likely to prevent the filing because your intent is what must be proven, which is difficult enough as it is. This is considered settled law by the US Supreme court, and it should be within society as a whole.

If this post is in response to mine, I have a CERTIFICATE and a card. The cert. is on my wall.

Nevertheless, he is my instructor and you are not. Perhaps if we all listened to our instructors, and not to others, we might be a more risk-less society.

And I gather from the last part of your quoted post that you must be a lawyer as well as all those other things you mentioned. I am not a lawyer and I prefer to stay away from legal issues and courtrooms.
 
Just for review a break down of the Good Samaritan Law:

Federal and State Good Samaritan Laws exist to protect those who assist victims of an accident or crime and the victims themselves.

1. Duty to Assist: A person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to or has suffered grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the person can do so without danger or peril to self or others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person. Reasonable assistance may include obtaining or attempting to obtain aid from law enforcement or medical personnel. A person who violates this subdivision is guilty of a petty misdemeanor.

2. General immunity from liability: A person who, without compensation or the expectation of compensation, renders emergency care, advice, or assistance at the scene of an emergency or during transit to a location where professional medical care can be rendered, is not liable for any civil damages as a result of acts of omissions by that person in rendering the emergency care, advice, or assistance, unless the person acts in a willful and wanton or reckless manner in providing the care, advice, or assistance. This subdivision does not apply to a person rendering emergency care, advice, or assistance during the course or regular employment, and receiving compensation or expecting to receive compensation for rendering the care, advice, or assistance.
 
PairofMedics:
Actually, with the LP-12 Leads II AVL and AVF will give a compresion waveform. But ETC02/capnography is now the standard in identifying the presence of spontaneous circulation in PEA arrest situations, and how effective accompanying chest compressions are by producing waveforms and measured levels via the ET Tube. Only effective compressions and adequate ventiulation will provide consistent ETC02 readings, but will do so in ANY ryhthm.
Now you claim to be a paramedic instructor? Just wondering, have you broke your self proclaimed two dozen codes yet?
The only effective compressions are those that produce a pulse. Other than dopler, we, that is EMS providers, carry nothing that "shows" an effective compresion.

If there is spontanious circulation, then it isn't PEA now is it? Wave forms do not = effective compressions.

Im kinda old school here, but I try to pass these things along. Treat the Pt not the machine. Just becouse the LP is showing a "perfect" wave form dosen't mean your doing effectve compressions. If they have a pulse, then you are....BLS before ALS, and finaly, treat the person as if it was your family.....
 
ParamedicDiver1:
Just for review a break down of the Good Samaritan Law: ...
That is a good summary but the general immunity from liability clause in pretty much every state applies only to those trained in CPR (even if just at a lay level). Someone completely untrained (never having taken a CPR class) is not necessarily granted any immunity from negligence if they attempt to wing it and things go bad. It is a good motivation for everyone to get a CPR card.
 
Okay, I have to add my two cents.

That is a good summary but the general immunity from liability clause in pretty much every state applies only to those trained in CPR (even if just at a lay level). Someone completely untrained (never having taken a CPR class) is not necessarily granted any immunity from negligence if they attempt to wing it and things go bad. It is a good motivation for everyone to get a CPR card.

In order to prove negligence, there are four universally recognized points that must be addressed.

1. duty to act
2. failure in that duty to act
3. harm
4. proximate cause

If a person is in cardiac arrest, nothing worse can happen to them. They are dead at that point. You can crack ribs (and yes it DOES happen from time to time, especially with incorrect hand placement), lacerate a liver or spleen, puncture a lung or whatever. The patient is pulseless and apneic, they are clinically dead. Therefore, even if you have never been trained in CPR, you can do no harm to that patient, so you are not succeptible to liability. This the way that 911 call centers can give CPR instructions ove the phone to an untrained layperson without fear of the legal ramifications.

********The above only applies to the pulseless and apneic patient!!! Patients who ARE NOT pulseless and apneic can have further harm done to them!*****

The Federal Good Samaritian law DOES NOT superscede state law, as spelled out in the Federal good samaritan law. The Federal Good Samaritan law only applies to AED usage, so State law is more protective anyway.

The following is an excerpt from the National Conference of STate Legislatures
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/health/aed.htm
On November 13, 2000 President Clinton signed the federal "Cardiac Arrest Survival Act", in H.R.2498, now Public Law 106-505, regarding the placement of AEDs in federal buildings and providing civil immunity for authorized users. If a Good Samaritan, building owner, or renter acts in good faith to purchase or use an AED to save a life, this law will provide protection from unfair lawsuits. It appropriates $25,000,000 for fiscal years 2001 through 2003 for local grants to purchase AEDs. The federal bill does not preempt state laws on immunity. Many of the 49 states with existing laws cover additional issues not addressed in this bill. U.S. Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL) and 132 cosponsors sponsored H.R. 2498.

On April 24, 1998 President Clinton signed Public Law 105-170, the Aviation Medical Assistance Act, relating to defibrillators on airplanes. It declares that air carriers and individuals "shall not be liable for damages" in attempting to obtain or provide assistance. It directs the FAA Administrator to "evaluate regulations" and decide on future required use of AEDs on passenger aircraft and in airports

Capnography is the wave of the future. A person in cardiopulmonary arrest with proper CPR and capnography will show changes in the capnography readings. All of my medics are now using capnography not only in codes, but in breathing difficulty calls as well.

Final point. Someone mentioned that it takes 10-15 seconds for CPR compressions to become effective. This is in fact true. If has been found that fifteen compressions is not enough time for the backpressure to build to a suitable level. In fact, over the phone lay person instructions for CPR are now completely omitting the breathing component.

Follow the local guidelines until they change.
 
Wildcard,

it is possible to have occult circulation in a patient that would otherwise be diagnosed as PEA (EMD) by ACLS standards. While circulation may not be effective enough to perfuse critical tissues, it is important for us to know if there is some myocardial response to conduction, or if the tissue is truely not responding.
 
PairofMedics:
Where the air ends up depends on how the airway is maintained. Once an ET Tube is placed you're guaranteed to put every breath in the right place. But once again this illustrates the difference between professional and layperson CPR.

I have seen a lot of tubed patients come into the ED with air in the belly. One of the most common mistakes made by medics is incorrect tube placement, or correct tube placement that subsequently became incorrect while the patient was being moved. Suggest a c-collar on every tubed patient to address this.

There is NO guarantee. You must continually reassess and reassess.
 

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