the problem is that 50% of all instructors out there are below average....
Have training standards "slipped"?
- Thread starter tep
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
Hemlon
Contributor
cancun mark:
Chuckle
- Messages
- 22,171
- Reaction score
- 2,802
- # of dives
- 5000 - ∞
cancun mark:
Try reading it. Contrary to what you THINK it says, I am actually allowed to disagree with you, and even to say that some of your protocols are dangerous. Teaching others to dive to 200fsw on air just boggles my imagination. Thank GOODNESS most agencies have moved away from this kind of fool hardy, adrenaline driven mentality. If this is how standards have "slipped", then HALLELUJAH! They apparently need to slip some more.Thalassamania:
Contrary to what some would have you to believe, we DON'T have to make diving a second career in order to enjoy it. Learn what you need to be comfortable in the environment you will be diving in. You just don't need to sacrifice a huge amount of time to becoming a safe diver. If the adrenaline rush is what you're after, then there are PLENTY of instructors who are able to over complicate the simplest of skills and push you to the limit of endurance and task loading.
daniel f aleman
Contributor
cancun mark:
Yep. Just where that average is, is the question really...
Frankly, there a lot of great instructors out there, and the current state of agency curriculum is solid. The biggest difference in training is that scuba is considered a "recreation or sport", back in 1974, I was called a "frogman".
The equipment available now is fantastic as compared to that of what we had in 1974 when I was certified. The emphasis on technique (buoyancy control, finning options, buddy skills, gas planning) are greater now than that of thirty years-ago.
And the other great improvement is that there is an entire dive travel industry that includes local trips, charters, liveaboards, and dedicated dive destinations - all that has taken thirty years to develope.
underwasser bolt
Contributor
Standards slipped?? I learned to dive almost 20 years ago, went with my wife to certify her 14 years ago, I am working with my son now to have him certified. Equipment has improved for sure, not sure about training standards. 20 years ago I had "rigorous" military training, 14 years ago I did PADI training, now my son is doing SDI. My thought: diving is a SKILL, which can not be taught in 2 days, not 14 years ago (2days) or now (2days). It cant be taught in a week. Maybe a few weeks (military, commercial). Even in military/commercial, trick is PRACTICE underwater, also called experience. And if you take a few years off, it is not like riding a bicycle; I know that from experience also.
Achieving and maintaining neutral buoyancy through breath control, proper weighting, anticipating the effects of neoprene squeeze, proper body orientation, and other related issues was certainly taught in the 70s, and earlier. Buoyancy control using BCD's with lp hose connections made things much easier, virtually effortless for trained divers who understood the concepts involved.
I never did a single pushup during my NASDS training back in 1972. Actually, I'd been scuba diving for years at that point, but thats when I was certified, and the training was centered on skills and safety. There was nothing that smacked of macho or the odor of testosterone. There were some demanding performance requirements, all of them perfectly reasonable, and none requiring anything other than ordinary physical ability. Trainees who suffered from testosterone overload were quickly disabused of such notions. It was made clear that confidence must be based on mastery of essential skills, and on nothing else. In fact, macho attitudes were ridiculed by the several instructors involved in the 6 week training program.
There may have been some bonehead macho men doing dive training in the old days, but I never encountered any. That kind of thick-skulled invincible ignorance seems to be in plentiful supply here, though. Dude.
I never did a single pushup during my NASDS training back in 1972. Actually, I'd been scuba diving for years at that point, but thats when I was certified, and the training was centered on skills and safety. There was nothing that smacked of macho or the odor of testosterone. There were some demanding performance requirements, all of them perfectly reasonable, and none requiring anything other than ordinary physical ability. Trainees who suffered from testosterone overload were quickly disabused of such notions. It was made clear that confidence must be based on mastery of essential skills, and on nothing else. In fact, macho attitudes were ridiculed by the several instructors involved in the 6 week training program.
There may have been some bonehead macho men doing dive training in the old days, but I never encountered any. That kind of thick-skulled invincible ignorance seems to be in plentiful supply here, though. Dude.
OP
I've seen a few very interesting posts come along that I think are getting to the heart of the matter.
First, someone pointed out that there used to be "one level" of certification, that seems to be really more like the current AOW. In other words, the standards for what are now considered "advanced" were the minimum acceptable, before. There didn't used to be a separate "cave diving" certification before, for example, nor a maximum depth other than "recreational limits" of about 120-140 ft.
Second, the equipment has changed. No more diving without a pressure gauge or additional air supply. Lots of new tech that just about makes an out-of-air situation really hard to get into (modulo a reg failure). Training seems to have phased out some of the "riskier" training standards for dealing with situations that are supposed to be completely avoidable, or extremely rare. For example, even where buddy breathing is taught, it's at depth, not on an ascent, which is when it would likely be needed, anyway. Emergency bouyant ascents are completely avoidable and the training to deal with this extremely rare sitation was believed to cause more injuries than it would have prevented.
Third, the expectations have changed. None of us are planning to lay mines, remove concertina from a beachhead, tow a buddy 500-900 yards from a free fire zone
So, IF you took today's AOW as the same as "basic" certification from 'way back when, and considered the current "basic OW" as a "learner's permit", then would it be fair to say that we've just (as an industry):
* recognized that not every diver needs to be Mike Hunt (go look that one up, kiddies!)
* used the "new" entry level cert to get more people involved in the sport
* tried to use technology and training to make some situations (esp out of air) incredibly rare
* used technology (such as safe seconds) so prevalent that some skills (buddy breathing) should just never be necessary
* kept the right skills at the right level (OW vs AOW) for the kinds of diving done by people at those levels
and that basically standards (and expectations) have really changed, not slipped?
I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm really trying to understand how the industry and sport has changed, and how training standards have morphed over the years.
First, someone pointed out that there used to be "one level" of certification, that seems to be really more like the current AOW. In other words, the standards for what are now considered "advanced" were the minimum acceptable, before. There didn't used to be a separate "cave diving" certification before, for example, nor a maximum depth other than "recreational limits" of about 120-140 ft.
Second, the equipment has changed. No more diving without a pressure gauge or additional air supply. Lots of new tech that just about makes an out-of-air situation really hard to get into (modulo a reg failure). Training seems to have phased out some of the "riskier" training standards for dealing with situations that are supposed to be completely avoidable, or extremely rare. For example, even where buddy breathing is taught, it's at depth, not on an ascent, which is when it would likely be needed, anyway. Emergency bouyant ascents are completely avoidable and the training to deal with this extremely rare sitation was believed to cause more injuries than it would have prevented.
Third, the expectations have changed. None of us are planning to lay mines, remove concertina from a beachhead, tow a buddy 500-900 yards from a free fire zone
So, IF you took today's AOW as the same as "basic" certification from 'way back when, and considered the current "basic OW" as a "learner's permit", then would it be fair to say that we've just (as an industry):
* recognized that not every diver needs to be Mike Hunt (go look that one up, kiddies!)
* used the "new" entry level cert to get more people involved in the sport
* tried to use technology and training to make some situations (esp out of air) incredibly rare
* used technology (such as safe seconds) so prevalent that some skills (buddy breathing) should just never be necessary
* kept the right skills at the right level (OW vs AOW) for the kinds of diving done by people at those levels
and that basically standards (and expectations) have really changed, not slipped?
I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm really trying to understand how the industry and sport has changed, and how training standards have morphed over the years.
bookboarder
Registered
NetDoc:
I learned via a NAUI instructor and we did do the buddy breathing to the surface in all of our buddy breathing drills. :huh:
Hemlon
Contributor
Nichole,
After you have been diving for a little longer, you will see that there is a variation in what students receive from each agency.
Go dive! And take AOW when you feel ready to expand your knowledge/experience base!
After you have been diving for a little longer, you will see that there is a variation in what students receive from each agency.
Go dive! And take AOW when you feel ready to expand your knowledge/experience base!
Similar threads
