Halcyon = not "DIR"

[DS1]

If you dont like your Halcyon wing send it over my way ill give it a good home and you can have my brand new OMS 60lbs

 

[WJL]

....

In reference to the dump. The fabric the covers the entire wing, and forms a small cut out around the dump, pulled free. I.E. it not tucked under the dump as it is intended. This lead to the dump 'retreating' back as the surround cover had come undone. The string would drift into the area, forcing me to fish it out. I hope that describes it better. Again, not huge deal, but another annoyance. What should have taken 3 seconds to do, became a game of me digging my fingers into the hole to fish out the string, and then dumping.
....

If I am understanding your description correctly, the wing's fabric cover over the bladder has pulled free from where it is supposed to be attached around the dump valve. I can see how that would create a problem in using the dump valve. The wing needs to be repaired.

You don't mention how this situation came to be, so I can't say if there was a problem in the construction of the wing, or whether the fabric came loose because some force was applied to the wing, or whether there was some other cause. Whatever the cause of the problem, it sounds as if it could be remedied easily. Did you fix it yourself or have a shop look at it?

 

[darkpup]

I totally agree with what you said. I see the relationship between GUE, Halcyon, and DIR, and I totally see the irony with regards to a Halcyon piece of equipment not meeting the philosophical standards of DIR.

I'm right there with MartiniTime with regards to the recall, and I'm rather frustrated that my brand new Pioneer 36 wing and my wife's Pioneer 27 have a problem so soon after purchasing them. So I on a personal level can completely understand the frustration surrounding this recall.

The problem I have is when someone, that understands the close philosophical and financial relationship between Halcyon and DIR, challenges whether a piece of gear meets the DIR requirements, and then wonders why people defend Halcyon/DIR so strongly because they choose to only focus on the financial relationship and completely disregards the philosophical relationship between the two groups.

I completely understand how the marketing of Halcyon products via GUE instruction is a problem for some. I completely see how a defective piece of gear promoted by the DIR community can have a negative effect on the DIR communities reputation.

I guess the problem at the heart of this thread (and most other DIR threads) is based on the ideological differences between DIR and other dive agencies. From MartiniTime's perspective, he was just challenging a Halcyon wing before he knew it was defective. However from the DIR perspective, his comments were rather insulting, and once again challenged DIR under the guise of a piece of gear.

I'll go back to lurking until I'm not so defensive.

~ Jason

 

[MartiniTime]

Bill, again I appreciate your voice of reason on here. I just had to tuck in the fabric before everydive. I used a rubber paddle to push in under the dump valve as best I could. Of course it is under there now, but I have no idea how long it would remain there during a dive.

My only guess is it pulled lose from being very very inflated prior to a big dive with dual 120's and 2 80 stage bottles, and some other gear.

The wing was brand new prior to the trip, I did one fresh water dive prior to leaving. It came lose on about dive 6 I guess. Not really sure it was long trip. There was no other indication of external damage that I am aware of, there was nothing extraordinary about the use. None of my other gear was damaged in transit either.

I gave up on it around dive 19 or 20 I guess, after the inflator problem kept returning.

DS1 I was going to sell and it get a new OMS 60 anyway, PM me and we can talk about it. Depending on what bill recomends I may just ship the whole wing back for the recall, so we'll have to wait until returns. I sent Halcyon a mail today.

 

[pipedope]

There's a DIR for engineering, QA and manufacturing too!?

Hot dog wait til I tell my boss. It's gotta be better than all this six sigma, SPPD, TOPS and all the other junk we're using.

Aren't all of those simply techniques of Doing It Right in manufacturing?

And all the alphabet soup in the world doesn't help if people are not really DOING IT.

As for Halcyon, they are doing the right thing in fixing the problem. I understand that some of these manufacturing defects are difficult to find, especially when they are rare.

 

[pipedope]

Every once in a while I'm inclined to give ignorance the opportunity to display itself.

I am only too happy to help out.

 

[MHK]

Take a lesson from Bill earlier, the only cognisant Halcyon supporter I have seen on this thread, if you have some real criticism of my analyses, I'll be more than happy to point out any points you make. Just like I did with him. I did not realize halcyon had an open circuirt bag, and I will take that up with my local halcyon dealer.

I guess what most of us don't understand about your "challenge" is that the issue(s) you seem to have are twofold:

1) The inflator
2) dumping from the rear dump valve

On the one hand, while an admittedly small precentage of inflators had some problems Halcyon stepped up to the plate and recalled ALL of them. They didn't just offer a free repair kit, like OMS did when my wing had a problem. In other words, they took the path of most resistance, they put the interest of safety before profit and certainly knew that many would make more of the problem. But they put those concerns aside and issued a complete recall. Accordingly, we stipulated early in this thread that it's an issue and Halcyon has addressed the point. It seems to me any more discussion about this point is fruitless.

As to the second issue you raised, WJL correctly notes that we can't figure out your issue and/or your description. Most of us here dive the wing week in and week out and don't have the problem you describe and don't understand your description, perhaps you could post a picture and we'd be happy to comment.

Why is it every other manufacturer can be slammed, but no one can anything about halcyon without a major break down of good manners (including mods.)

Pipedope summed it up well. Are they really "doing it right" if they have to recall every LP inflator since oct 2003? I have yet to ever return a Dive Rite or OMS product for a recall.

As I noted above, Halcyon went the extra mile to recall EVERY wing, whereas when OMS had the problem they sent me a "repair" kit that was next to impossible to figure out and required a specially fit seperate tool to fix the wing that I didn't have so I wound up having to pay a shop to fix the wing. I'd take Halcyon's customer care any day of the week.

But like most any sizeable organizations sometimes equipment passes QC and then later fails. As you noted your issue didn't happen until the 10th dive of the week. Obviously it's a small problem that could easily escape QC given that 9 previous dives you had no problem.

I'd be happy to take a DIR class, but I would'nt pay for it. Beside this thread is not about DIR diving thoery its about Halcyon products, I think I made it pretty clear I have not had DIR training correct?

I have a standing policy in my classes that goes that if you take my class and can honestly say that you didn't learn anything then I'd be happy to refund the money. Short of that I'm not exactly sure why you think ANY instructor from ANY agency should provide classes absent payment. I don't follow your line of thinking here. We're not out trying to convert you into thinking that you need DIR, we offer training to those that accept that DIR style of diving is the way they want to dive.

BTW, I can promise you that I've been diving longer then 2 years and I'm not taking cheap interent swipes at you. I'm trying to understand what exactly your issue(s) are.

Regards

Michael H. Kane
GUE Instructor # 5027

 

[Uncle Pug]

DS1 I was going to sell and it get a new OMS 60 anyway, PM me and we can talk about it.

Everybody gets want they want in the end.

 

[MartiniTime]

Well MHK, I'll make deal with you. As soon as my paper work goes through, if you do a Tec Deep and Trimix with me (I am assuming you have not done them), I'll do your GUE classes, deal? Seems pointless right? I am guessing you probably would not want to pay me for a DSAT class right?

I have not taken a DIR class, becuase I dont want to dive DIR. I purchased the Halcyon gear, because before this trip, I had never used any of it (with the exception of a light, and it was damn nice,) and it would be unfair to comment on it, without actually having used it, not because I want to be a DIR diver.

But again we digress. The thread was not originally about DIR dive theory. It was about my experince with Halcyon products. Though someone pointed out to me, albeit way late in the game, that this post should have been on the BC forum. I originally considered that, but figured this forum was a more appropiate venue, apparently I was wrong.

 

[The Fresh Prince]

Well MHK, I'll make deal with you. As soon as my paper work goes through, if you do a Tec Deep and Trimix with me (I am assuming you have not done them), I'll do your GUE classes, deal? Seems pointless right? I am guessing you probably would not want to pay me for a DSAT class right?

I have not taken a DIR class, becuase I dont want to dive DIR. I purchased the Halcyon gear, because before this trip, I had never used any of it (with the exception of a light, and it was damn nice,) and it would be unfair to comment on it, without actually having used it, not because I want to be a DIR diver.

But again we digress. The thread was not originally about DIR dive theory. It was about my experince with Halcyon products. Though someone pointed out to me, albeit way late in the game, that this post should have been on the BC forum. I originally considered that, but figured this forum was a more appropiate venue, apparently I was wrong.

Can anyone say Alicia Silverstone?