GUE Fundamentals Rec/Tec

[Scott L]

None of which are mandatory to proceed on to the next class. I guess my team was the only group that didn't feel fundamentals was an impossible course, and all passed the first go-round. I'm glad that I have it behind me then

StreeDoc, you guys were ever so fortunate and smart to have thoroughly researched the process mastering it's nuances including scheduling classes with no other participants. Big problems occur when divers of unequal skill levels are grouped together. As Lamont indicates, the grouping of single tank and double tank divers is silly.

In my class, we had one very fine tec pass ready diver who was lucky enough to have been coached by Tech 1 divers, an experienced single tank diver working toward a rec cert and myself (very experienced rec diver) with shiny new doubles gear (not properly weighted) with less than 6 dives in the doubles configuration. Let me just say the class was a CF. Lamont's suggestion would alleviate most of all of these scheduling issues.

By the way, most of the senior GUE instructors (Sherwood, Marshall, etc.) properly segment classes or involve interns to simultaneously work with the divers seeking instruction as opposed to simply testing the tec pass ready participants.

Lastly, seas are flat and vis is good. You guys should come on down...

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Definitely just take it in singles. You'll be learning enough as it is without throwing one more variable into the mix.

Are you taking it in singles? How is it going for you?

 

[StreetDoctor]

StreeDoc, you guys were ever so fortunate and smart to have thoroughly researched the process mastering it's nuances including scheduling classes with no other participants. Big problems occur when divers of unequal skill levels are grouped together. As Lamont indicates, the grouping of single tank and double tank divers is silly.

In my class, we had one very fine tec pass ready diver who was lucky enough to have coached by Tech 1 divers, an experienced single tank diver working toward a rec cert and myself (very experienced rec diver) with shiny new doubles gear (not properly weighted) with less than 6 dives in the doubles configuration. Let me just say the class was a CF. Lamont's suggestion would alleviate most of all these scheduling issues.

By the way, most of the senior GUE instructors (Sherwood, Marshall, etc.) properly segment classes or involve interns to simultaneously work with the divers seeking instruction as opposed to simply testing the tec pass ready participants.

Lastly, seas are flat and vis is good. You guys should come on down...

Scott I agree with you although personally I don't think I would take a GUE course with divers I didn't know. I would either convince my regular buddies to take it with me or if I had to take it with strangers I'd have to get in at least a dozen dives with them before class to get used to each other. After all GUE is team-based diving and although fundamentals will help anyone I'm not sure I'd be that interested in it unless I had a group of similarly trained divers to go dive with. GUE courses are too much of a time/money commitment for me to go into it "cold". I just don't think forcing more experienced divers into a single tank recreational class is the way to go. You're right... florida is calling Water temps?

 

[gsk3]

Are you taking it in singles? How is it going for you?

Yes, singles wet. Two of my classmates are taking it doubles/dry, and one is taking it in singles/dry. I haven't noticed any problems resulting from disparate skill levels. We're all struggling along but our last two dives started showing the makings of good teamwork.

I think doubles vs. singles is less of an issue than if someone comes in who really should have taken Primer first (e.g. buoyancy/trim insufficient to be able to watch the skills demonstrations and stick with the team while they are doing theirs), which didn't happen with us (my classmates rock), and I'm not sure how much that happens given the personal nature of signing up for a class. To paraphrase Bob, we could all do the skills if parked on the bottom like a rock, it's doing skills in good buoyancy, trim, and while maintaining good teamwork and communication that makes the class truly great. Hopefully we'll start to move it to that next level of awareness in the second half of the class.

I have a set of doubles and was set to dive them for the class, but Bob discouraged me from doing so, given that I would have only had a dive or two at most in them. Bob was right. Bob is always right.

 

[Scott L]

I just don't think forcing more experienced divers into a single tank recreational class is the way to go.

I can't speak for lamont but I do not believe that is what he is proposing. Both yourself and ScubaInChicago had obviously achieved the required skill level in order to have entered any doubles fundies class. A skilled GUE instructor can easily determine these facts by properly reviewing the pre-class diver profiles and picking up the phone.

You're right... florida is calling Water temps?

78 degrees amigo. I am dusting-off my .5mm skin as we speak. This WPB charter operation does a nice job of posting current dive reports including temperatures...

West Palm Beach Dive Reports from Narcosis Dive Charters

 

[DiverLaura]

I think this is where primer comes in... i'm not sure that a singles and doubles separate fundamentals is quite the answer, but i agree with taking the variations of pass, provisional, tech vs. rec out of the mix.

Perhaps more the answer would be to just make Fundamentals a single tank class, and have the option to 'test out of' the doubles class/workshop.

Or, go in the direction they are already headed,

Primer, Fundamentals, Rec 2, Rec 3. and as Lamont says, 25 dives between each By the time you are done with that, you are doubles, with helium, minimal deco... this will get you going and gaining experience for tech 1 if you so choose

Primer gets your brain going in the 'right direction', offering a gentle entry into the 'system', and gives you a baseline for where you need to be coming into Fundamentals.

Of course if you are a hundred plus dive diver with buoyancy nailed and a solid mentor group who you've already been working on propulsion, you could go right into Fundamentals

taking the tech/rec pass out might be the best idea... let fundamentals be completely independent of tank configuration, let it be up to the discretion of the student and instructor whether they want to attend in single or doubles, but it gains/looses them nothing either way. If they are good dubs divers and hate diving singles (me) then let em take it in doubles. if they are just out of OW and primer and a very happy recreational diver looking for more education, let them take it in singles..

but take the 'shame' out of just doing it in a single and getting a 'rec' pass. People need to be doing this for the education, not the card. if you are already fighting your gear, you will learn less. if you are spending the first half of the class trying to dial in your dubs, it's simply a ridiculous waste of time.

 

[lamont]

I can't speak for lamont but I do not believe that is what he is proposing. Both yourself and ScubaInChicago had obviously achieved the required skill level in order to have entered any doubles fundies class. A skilled GUE instructor can easily determine these facts by properly reviewing the pre-class diver profiles and picking up the phone.

And what I'm saying is that students should get into a GUE course before training for fundies.

Most of the divers that find out about fundies/GUE these days are not at the level where they'd get a tech pass out of fundies, so they go out and train and delay getting instruction. They should just sign up for an Essentials/Primer/Whatever course to move them through to the equivalent of a recreational pass out of fundies.

If you addressed this you could also address the whole instruction/evaluation issue -- making the recreational course more instruction-focused and more about learning the concepts and less about demonstrating the concepts, and make the tech pass more evaluation-focused and more about the sign-off to being able to take cave1/tech1 (and dedicating the fundies course to those definitely taking tech and not doing mix + match).

 

[lamont]

but take the 'shame' out of just doing it in a single and getting a 'rec' pass. People need to be doing this for the education, not the card. if you are already fighting your gear, you will learn less. if you are spending the first half of the class trying to dial in your dubs, it's simply a ridiculous waste of time.

Its also the train, train, train, train, train problem that i see.

For awhile fundies was was just a workshop and you didn't have to train to pass it. i was encouraged by divers who had been through there to just take fundies when i had 25 dives. Of course, i didn't pass it, and much later i had to pay again to get the nice plastic card so that i could take more courses.

To me, that seems to be the way to go about doing the training, which is actually to take a course as early as possible. But paying for a course, expecting to not pass it and have to pay again much later down the road (after the 6 month provisional has expired), is something that tweaks that American Consumer Hindbrain "i'm getting ripped off" reflex. And this is one of those cases where its doing you a disservice.

Maybe essentials/primer will fix all this, but once divers seem to fixate on becoming a technical diver and all the recreational courses are below them, then they fixate on fundies and passing fundies and you wind up with train, train, train, train, train for fundies again.

I can see how if you come in with 500+ dives, already having done technical/cave diving in other agencies and with reasonably solid skills you might want to test out of the recreational stuff and go directly to fundies. So maybe my statement that *nobody* should be able to test out of the rec course goes a little over the top. But in that case, the diver isn't going to wind up in the training pit -- they're already just out there doing dives and having already built up experience technical diving. For divers who have no prior technical training, I do see the value in forcing them to sit down and take recreational training, right away, from an instructor.

 

[StreetDoctor]

Lamont,

Maybe I'm a bit different I dunno, but I did train a bit (50 dives or so) before taking fundamentals. Except for a valve drill I wasn't training on anything new. Simply working on buoyancy, trim, etc. I had no previous technical diving experience. To me it was a lot of fun, I wasn't interested in taking another class I was just going out and doing more diving than I normally would in preparation for the class. Worked out fine for me I also don't think there has to be an instructor holding your hand for learning to occur.

 

[kanonfodr]

Lamont,

I basically did what you are espousing; I took Essentials first with less than 20 dives to my name, practiced the skills I learned afterwards in my own diving, even got in some dives with local GUE folk as well as a visiting GUE diver when he came over for some fun diving. Now, with almost 50 dives after Essentials and experience in doubles and a drysuit I am about to take Fundies (my original goal) and I feel way more confident in my ability to pass the class vs hogging the training time just trying to grasp the concepts and skills presented.

My point is that while I personally took a longer road to Fundies, nobody should be forced to. Having my teammate, an experienced technical diver, make the switch to single tank and be on probation for 25 dives or so sounds a bit Draconian IMO. Also, what would then be the reason for the various pass levels?? If someone has the skills for a tech pass, let them have it. If not, they can still make a rec pass or provisional.

Peace,
Greg