Gotta vent!!!

[DA Aquamaster]

The dive master is placing himself in a postion of being responsible for the divers, particularly if he accepts compensation for it. A waiver wil not absolve him of that responsibility if something occurs during the dive that he may have been able to prevent or provide assistance to prevent a death or injury had he been in the water.

He is also assuming risk by implying that these divers are adequately trained, experienced and qualified to dive that particular site with a reasonable degree of saftey. The only valid argument he would have in court would be his not being advised by the divers of their lack of experience. This is not the case in this situation.

I commend the people here who feel divers should be responsible for thier own actions and decisions, but the reality is that this is not the position taken by grieving families or greedy attorneys. This dude better have really good liability insurance because sooner or later he will need it. Buddies of deceased divers get sued for not upholding an unspoken and uncompensated obligation, a financially compensated DM is really at risk, waiver or not.

I, as an unpaid non commercial boat owner, am at risk if I take a diver to a site for which he lacks the required experience. And I am in essence doing nothing more than providing him the opportunity to be stupid and get in over his head. At a minimum I want witnesses hearing me tell the diver he should not be making the dive due to the disparity between the demands of the dive and his experience or ability in addiiton to a waiver. Then at least I can say he chose not to take my advice and continued with the dive.

 

[diverbrian]

I know that it is the DM's option whether or not to go into the water here as well. I agree that smoking in front of the new divers probably isn't a great idea, but it is up to the DiveMaster.

If he smokes, then it really shouldn't be anyone else's problem. I have seen a couple of cases were the DM feels the need to dive with a particular group and as one who will finish his Dive Con next month, I see it if the divers are certified and the dive isn't at the extreme edge of their limits, I shouldn't need to supervise them in the water. I am not their babysitter.

If this were (for example) a cold water shipwreck dive with deeper depth involved for a relatively new diver, as a person who cares, I would be their "dive buddy". If they were relatively new divers, I would probably join them as well to offer *solicited* pointers when we got out. There are other cases.

Bottom line, it is a judgement call on the part of the DM. If they are certified divers, they are on their own hook as a long as they sign the waviers. But, also, I love to dive. I wouldn't DM a dive if I COULDN'T dive!

 

[divemed06]

Ok...I guess I didn't get the response I was expecting; fair enough. Maybe I`m spoiled. Wether diving at home or on a trip, I've ALWAYS had DMs and boat crew that acted extremely professionaly. The DMs that I've come into contact with while diving with charters or organized events have always set a positive example, not only as highly skilled divers, but as professionals and as individuals. For me, a DM/Instructor is someone to whom a less experienced diver can and should look up to. Maybe it's asking too much...but I've never had to ask. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be babysat, but I do want someone with whom I can talk with about their experience and gain some of their knowledge. I'm just happy that some people out there don't just "do the bare minimum to say it's done" and put all their heart and soul into what they're doing, not because they have to, but because they want to.

As for the smoking, well, you guys are absolutely right that it's no one elses business (I've never had a DM smoke while he was ¨working¨)... IMO, this might sound nasty but here we go...to put it bluntly, I didn't pay for the DM to smoke in my face while he's giving me a pre-dive brief...let him contaminate his lungs on his own time, I need mine to dive... my apologize if that offended anyone.

 

[GQMedic]

Well, if this guy is smoking next to you, blowing it in your face, he's not a divemaster, he's not a smoker, he's a hineyhole.

I am understand your being tweated out about that. Heyl not everybody smokes, that being said, there's a simple word that speaks volumes... COURTESY.

I don't smoke during my dive briefings, my students are too close by. I don't need my smouldering log sticking out of my face while I splutter out my briefing.

Ok, 'nuff about smoking. I am not going to hijack this thread and re-visit the smoking threads.

 

[Scuba_Vixen]

What we don't know here may be important to how we react. Did the divers get promised an "in water" DM, or did the shop just tell them that so and so would be there to handle the paperwork? It's all about what was specified before the dive and what the divers agreed to. May be that the shop has these dives at lower rates than one with a DM to guide it. Seems there's more unknown here than known, and our speculation is moot. It's very possible, that as long as the divers KNOW that there will be no in water DM, and agree to that condition, then the shop's liability is greatly reduced.

"Always dive within your training and experience", they told me, and I wondered "what do I do when I avail myself of all their training" ... so now I'm working on the experiences..


Darlene

 

[Knavey]

I suppose the underlying question for this could be...

Was the employee who represented the dive shop acting in a professional manner while on the job?

Don't use that LDS if you think that he represents the attitude of the store in general.

 

[paulwlee]

I have to agree with ScubaVixen.
It seems to me the DM was there just to give people an
introduction to the dive site, including a briefing.

The fact that he collected release forms does not mean that
it is some kind of "organized group dive". Just giving a dive
briefing as a dive professional will create liability concerns and
liability releases would be prudent.

Also, I doubt that the DM was being compensated much, if at all.

FWIW, I dive in Monterey/Carmel, and although local stores make it known that guided tours are available (for ~$80 I think) I've never seen anyone hire a DM for that during my 3 years of diving in this area.

 

[bermudaskink]

In my not so breif opinion -

I agree with some of the above, as long as the divers were warned about their lack of experience and potential advantages of having a DM in the water with them, and were offered a DM to guide them etc. and knew that the only DM was staying on the beach and agreed to that, then that is OK.

The DM can choose a number of options. Go in or stay out of the water. Ideally in this situation (if the dive centre is keen on looking after customers, providing a good service and avoiding any kind of legal action being taken) there should have been a DM in the water to watch out for novice divers and guide everyone to make the dive more enjoyable, and one on the beach to call for help and assist from the shore if anything happens.

But really the DM doesn't have to go with the divers at all depending on what the customers think they are paying for. One way of seeing it is they were fortunate to have a DM on the beach incase something did go wrong. So he could grab the O2 kit, call EMS and provide assistance as soon as someone surfaces with a problem.

Depending on the dive site and the divers, the beach can be the most sensible place for a DM to be! :mean:

Tanks falling out of tank bands - who cares? if it's their own gear -they are the ones who'll have to fork out for new hoses etc. and if it isn't well the dive centre is just going to have to pay extra in servicing costs if they let their poorly experienced customers do that to their gear! ut:

It's OK for him to smoke after the divers have gone in the water but it's not OK to smoke infront of them before they dive - bad for their lungs just before a dive and also, IMO it doesn't look very professional in any kind of job (esp. when you are supposed to be setting an example for other divers and diving agencies including DAN (I think?) do reccomend that you DON'T smoke if you are a diver and certainly not directly before or after a dive)

:doctor:

So I agree and disagree with the original post but really wanted to point out the possibility that having a DM chilling on the beach isn't such a bad thing as long as he is ready to assist and not away with the fairies.

Did you know for sure that there was not another DM in the water with them?

 

[eod]

The last dive I went to was similar to the one you described. Organized by a LDS, the DM sitting in the boat after the briefing then we went into the water. Nothing bad with that? He overlooked the "diving area" we were briefed on (mostly a wreck) and if someone were in trouble I surely think he could be there in a few seconds.

Maybe the divers you talked about shouldn't have been allowed to dive alone at all if they were certified a few years ago and this was their first out of class dive. But that is up to the divers...

 

[bermudaskink]

If liabilty release forms were really worth the paper they are written on, instructors and DMs wouldn't have to purchase insurance!!
:idea: