Got Narced at Gilboa - and I thought that I would 'share' (Another Long post)

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Have you dived in cold water much? Some of the equipment and techniques divers are using don't work well in cold water especially if it's a little deep. It usually isn't the tchnicians. Ya know maybe I can't prove it but sometimes I get the impression some classes are almost specifically geared for the tropics. fault.

There is no PADI cold water diving specialty other than Ice Diver.

I was being facetious, for which I apologize. I know it's not the techs, and that there is no Cold Water specialty. But a free flowing reg, especially in cold weather (if there was a mention of surface temp, I missed it) is not alarming, nor does it indicate a lack of training.

Now, if they stand around till the tank is empty...that could be a lack of training.

I dive in cold (dark) water the majority of the time, 40-60 degrees.

I believe you are correct about your "geared for the tropics" premise.

I also think (part of my other answer) that it's the responsibility of the instructor to teach the environment.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I think in short it means that he was unable to handle a minor problem that he was supposed to have been proficient at before he received his OW card.

What was the problem?

Cold air?

I honestly don't understand what happened in the description of the incident, which is why I can't assess responsibility.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

There is no PADI cold water diving specialty other than Ice Diver.

I notice you didn't comment on the "narced at 84 ft" point, or on Rooster 1's potential class.

Did you have an opinion on that?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


I notice you didn't comment on the "narced at 84 ft" point, or on Rooster 1's potential class.

Did you have an opinion on that?

My opinion is that regarless of whether the problem was narcosis, overexertion from poor buoyancy control or if he was just uncomfortable he doesn't seem to have been prepared for the dive. Why do you suppose that is? He witnessed several other incedents the same weekend. Why do you think that many divers were having trouble?

As for Roosters class I think divers should develop skills first and go to depth second especially in cold water. Doing so with an instructor is a good idea as long as the student is ready for that level of training. I think he said it was a 120 ft dive. I'm not sure what class he was teaching or for what agency so I won't comment on his dive plan. PADI limits an AOW student to a maximum of 100 ft.

 

[jbd]

why the PADI limit to 100'?

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
My opinion is that regarless of whether the problem was narcosis, overexertion from poor buoyancy control or if he was just uncomfortable he doesn't seem to have been prepared for the dive. Why do you suppose that is? He witnessed several other incedents the same weekend. Why do you think that many divers were having trouble?

First, that was a slippery side step, but my point was:

"This does show one really cool thing though:

If the original poster had a $1000 dollar trimix ticket, and a END of 100, let alone 130,

HE STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN NARCED.

Once again showing the foolishness of an arbitrary limit.

Maybe, just maybe, a little experience with narcosis would have given him the necessary tools to handle the situation, or recognise it earlier."

Any comment on that? Narced at 84'?

"Why should one explore their air depth boundries? Of what use is that information and at what risk? All it takes is a little He and it's a nonissue." - Mike Ferrara

Second, per your remarks above, I'm beginning to see what the problem is.

First, you feel he was unprepared for the dive. On what basis?

You state: "My opinion is that regarless of whether the problem was narcosis, overexertion from poor buoyancy control or if he was just uncomfortable he doesn't seem to have been prepared for the dive. "

While you did leave out CO2, you seem to have come up with severeral groundless assumptions about difficulties he was having.

Where do you get this stuff from?

This guy states he was narced at 84 ft (he probably had cold water in one ear, but that's a different topic).

That's all he says. You come up with poor buoyancy control, overexertion, lack of comfort.

And on that subject, did he not take the right action in light of his incorrect assumption?

Buddy signal, air sharing, controled tandem ascent, safety stop?

What is your complaint here?

Then you go on about the five "incidents" that he witnessed, and what does that mean?

Mike, what is a "freeflow"? We must have different meanings. He said he witnessed five free flows. No mention was made of any diving dificulties, depths, injuries, except maybe the "cold air guy", if that was one of the five. Were the freeflows during diving? At the beginning of a dive? While standing in waist deep water?

Yet once again, you make a training issue out of it.

The water was 41 degrees. Of course you're bound to see some freeflows.

Mike, from what you've read, what level of certification do you feel this diver has?

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

As for Roosters class I think divers should develop skills first and go to depth second especially in cold water. Doing so with an instructor is a good idea as long as the student is ready for that level of training. I think he said it was a 120 ft dive. I'm not sure what class he was teaching or for what agency so I won't comment on his dive plan. PADI limits an AOW student to a maximum of 100 ft.

Once again, the arbitrary limit.

Let's make sure that little rule stands in the way of superior training.

What "skills" should they develop that are relevent here?

What is your indication that these skill were lacking?

It's AOW, it's a -class- on skill building.

They're going with a better than 1 to 1 ratio of DMs/instructors.

If Windknot had had this training, he may well have not gotten into the situation, or could have been better prepared to handle it.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye

How does cold water in an ear make you think you are out of air? I'm starting to think you are just from a different plannet.

Somehow you don't seem to think it's a problem when a diver thinks he is out of air when he isn't. Only one out of five had a problem with a free flow? Not bad huh?

What are some reasons regs free flow? You know things that can make it more likely to happen. I don't have a problem and I am almost always in cold water.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


Once again, the arbitrary limit.

Let's make sure that little rule stands in the way of superior training.

What "skills" should they develop that are relevent here?

What is your indication that these skill were lacking?

It's AOW, it's a -class- on skill building.

They're going with a better than 1 to 1 ratio of DMs/instructors.

If Windknot had had this training, he may well have not gotten into the situation, or could have been better prepared to handle it.

The line has to be drawn somewhere. The idea is to not byte off too much at one time. I didn't say I thought anything was wrong with roosters class so I don't know what you getting at here.

What "skills" should they develop that are relevent here?

What is your indication that these skill were lacking?

The basic skills should be in good asape before one goes "deep". I have no indication they were lacking in this case.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
PopeyeHow does cold water in an ear make you think you are out of air? I'm starting to think you are just from a different plannet.

You need to read up on the cause and effect of spatial disorientation. Regardless, whether or not he was narced, no training you endorse would have prepared him to handle that particular part of his episode. As I already said, once his mistake was made, for whatever reason, he obviously handled the situation quite well, despite his disorientation.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
PopeyeSomehow you don't seem to think it's a problem when a diver thinks he is out of air when he isn't. Only one out of five had a problem with a free flow? Not bad huh?

From a global perspective, or what? You tell me, from the information presented, exactly what was the problem?

And about the other dozen questions that you seem to have missed (again):

Again: "First, that was a slippery side step, but my point was:

"This does show one really cool thing though:

If the original poster had a $1000 dollar trimix ticket, and a END of 100, let alone 130,

HE STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN NARCED.

Once again showing the foolishness of an arbitrary limit.

Maybe, just maybe, a little experience with narcosis would have given him the necessary tools to handle the situation, or recognise it earlier."

Any comment on that? Narced at 84'?

"Why should one explore their air depth boundries? Of what use is that information and at what risk? All it takes is a little He and it's a nonissue." - Mike Ferrara

Second, per your remarks above, I'm beginning to see what the problem is.

First, you feel he was unprepared for the dive. On what basis?

You state: "My opinion is that regarless of whether the problem was narcosis, overexertion from poor buoyancy control or if he was just uncomfortable he doesn't seem to have been prepared for the dive. "

While you did leave out CO2, you seem to have come up with severeral groundless assumptions about difficulties he was having.

Where do you get this stuff from?

This guy states he was narced at 84 ft (he probably had cold water in one ear, but that's a different topic).

That's all he says. You come up with poor buoyancy control, overexertion, lack of comfort.

And on that subject, did he not take the right action in light of his incorrect assumption?

Buddy signal, air sharing, controled tandem ascent, safety stop?

What is your complaint here?

Then you go on about the five "incidents" that he witnessed, and what does that mean?

Mike, what is a "freeflow"? We must have different meanings. He said he witnessed five free flows. No mention was made of any diving dificulties, depths, injuries, except maybe the "cold air guy", if that was one of the five. Were the freeflows during diving? At the beginning of a dive? While standing in waist deep water?

Yet once again, you make a training issue out of it.

The water was 41 degrees. Of course you're bound to see some freeflows.

Mike, from what you've read, what level of certification do you feel this diver has?"

 

[Popeye]

Popeye once bubbled... ...

quote:
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Popeye once bubbled...


Once again, the arbitrary limit.

Let's make sure that little rule stands in the way of superior training.

What "skills" should they develop that are relevent here?

What is your indication that these skill were lacking?

It's AOW, it's a -class- on skill building.

They're going with a better than 1 to 1 ratio of DMs/instructors.

If Windknot had had this training, he may well have not gotten into the situation, or could have been better prepared to handle it.
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MikeFerrara once bubbled...


The line has to be drawn somewhere. The idea is to not byte off too much at one time. I didn't say I thought anything was wrong with roosters class so I don't know what you getting at here.

What "skills" should they develop that are relevent here?
What is your indication that these skill were lacking?

The basic skills should be in good asape before one goes "deep". I have no indication they were lacking in this case.

I dunno what you're getting at here, except not addressing the issue at hand. You were the one that brought up the question of skills as related to this class, so I don't know why you're asking me why you did.

Popeye once bubbled... ...

quote:
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Popeye once bubbled...


I notice you didn't comment on the "narced at 84 ft" point, or on Rooster 1's potential class.

Did you have an opinion on that?
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As for Roosters class I think divers should develop skills first and go to depth second especially in cold water. Doing so with an instructor is a good idea as long as the student is ready for that level of training. I think he said it was a 120 ft dive. I'm not sure what class he was teaching or for what agency so I won't comment on his dive plan. PADI limits an AOW student to a maximum of 100 ft.