Got My DM - But I Don't Want to Dive "This Way"...

[Jim Ernst]

Peter, I happen to know an instructor who would be happy to have you DM for his classes in the gear you enjoy using ...

He would also insist that you worry about trim, etc. so as to set a good example for the students.

... and if that other instructor ... who happens to be a cave diver ... is who I think it is, I'm sure she'd feel the same way ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I second what is said here!!

I sure as heck do not tell my Dive master what gear he/she can or can not use..

And as for trim and buoyancy, That is important to set a good example to your students!!

 

[BarryNL]

It seems to me the preliminary question is: Are you doing what's best for your student's, or are you doing what's best for the dive shop owner?

Because if you just going to do what makes the LDS the most money, the discussion is pretty short and simple.

On the other hand, if you're motive is to do what's best for your students, then you have to get into the question of what to wear.

I guess it also comes down to what the students will do with their c-card. Let's face it, 90% of OW card holders will never own their own gear and will just dive on vacation. For these people it probably is better just to learn the vest BCD and PADI style regulator setup because that's what their rental gear will be.

Perhaps the trick is to identify the 10% who will go on to become regular divers with their own equipment and introduce them to the alternatives...


(73% of statistics are made up on the spot)

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

You know, there are so many issues to look at with the DM-Instructor relationship, and this is one of them. Please remember that you are a professional now and do have a certain level of training, as well as the standards list too... Having said that, nowhere does it state in any standards that your equipment must match the shop's or school's. It does state the minimum equipment required like -BCD(no particulars), MFS(SDI and PADI-just that you have snorkle not wear it on your mask- I never would underwater and I explain to students who ask why), reg with appropriate guages on console, flashlight, signal sausage... SDI requires my computer) That's off the top of my head here at work, so ya'll don't get your panties in a twist if I skipped one. BUT never does it say that you must match the student's gear.
Yes, it is better to demonstrate skills in gear that is the same or close to the same as students, but once done, your own gear in the sea is safer and more comfortable for you. It also opens a door to sell more courses and equipment- if the shop is smart about those curious lil new divers. But, in any event, I have had enough to deal with with control and safety of the class in their sea dives to worry about my DM having a hog or BP/W... I want him or her to be ready to assist my class to their fullest ability, not being uncomfortable in their own rig.

Now I am going to piss off some instructors. Being one myself, I have played the DM And instructor roles. I still do. At my shop, we instructors DM for each other as much as the DMs do. We find we are better instructors And better as and to our DMs by working like that and our classes are smooth and synchronized. There are instructors who utilize the DM properly and those who don't. Some see the DM as a true assistant and partner- thus communication is fair and not dictatorial, and then others who like to work over the DM to show power and superiority-these don't think they need a DM anyway and use them as slave/scut labor, and many in all ranges in between. I have had experience with all ranges, so just know which ones you can talk to and discuss things with. If you find that an instructor does not work well with you, don't work with them. There are plenty of us that love a good DM who we can trust. Their loss not yours.

By the way, I dive a Zeagle tech but changed the plate back to singles for teaching(too lazy to lug my twins), I LIKE my long hose, and I have force fins(totally not school, but easy and fun), while other instructors and DMS at our place are running- BP/W, vest, wings, varied setups. They pick up a school BCD for the pool( which are all Zeagle rangers by the way, and our shop owner sells ALL the above configurstions. He loves the questions and gets to show more equipment. Win-win.

Okay, soapbox done.

By the way, I understand- I went form a vest to a harness, and Can go back, just don't like it and wouldn't for modelling proper bouyancy in front of students.

Sail on,
Dee

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

It's not what you think it's how you think that matters to me, (a non-instructor and occasional student.)

I'm not in a position to know which is the better equipment to teach in. But I do know that I want my instructor to base his decision on what he thinks is in my best interest - not someone else.

 

[Jim Ernst]

You know, there are so many issues to look at with the DM-Instructor relationship, and this is one of them. Please remember that you are a professional now and do have a certain level of training, as well as the standards list too... Having said that, nowhere does it state in any standards that your equipment must match the shop's or school's. It does state the minimum equipment required like -BCD(no particulars), MFS(SDI and PADI-just that you have snorkle not wear it on your mask- I never would underwater and I explain to students who ask why), reg with appropriate guages on console, flashlight, signal sausage... SDI requires my computer) That's off the top of my head here at work, so ya'll don't get your panties in a twist if I skipped one. BUT never does it say that you must match the student's gear.
Yes, it is better to demonstrate skills in gear that is the same or close to the same as students, but once done, your own gear in the sea is safer and more comfortable for you. It also opens a door to sell more courses and equipment- if the shop is smart about those curious lil new divers. But, in any event, I have had enough to deal with with control and safety of the class in their sea dives to worry about my DM having a hog or BP/W... I want him or her to be ready to assist my class to their fullest ability, not being uncomfortable in their own rig.

Now I am going to piss off some instructors. Being one myself, I have played the DM And instructor roles. I still do. At my shop, we instructors DM for each other as much as the DMs do. We find we are better instructors And better as and to our DMs by working like that and our classes are smooth and synchronized. There are instructors who utilize the DM properly and those who don't. Some see the DM as a true assistant and partner- thus communication is fair and not dictatorial, and then others who like to work over the DM to show power and superiority-these don't think they need a DM anyway and use them as slave/scut labor, and many in all ranges in between. I have had experience with all ranges, so just know which ones you can talk to and discuss things with. If you find that an instructor does not work well with you, don't work with them. There are plenty of us that love a good DM who we can trust. Their loss not yours.

By the way, I dive a Zeagle tech but changed the plate back to singles for teaching(too lazy to lug my twins), I LIKE my long hose, and I have force fins(totally not school, but easy and fun), while other instructors and DMS at our place are running- BP/W, vest, wings, varied setups. They pick up a school BCD for the pool( which are all Zeagle rangers by the way, and our shop owner sells ALL the above configurstions. He loves the questions and gets to show more equipment. Win-win.

Okay, soapbox done.

By the way, I understand- I went form a vest to a harness, and Can go back, just don't like it and wouldn't for modelling proper bouyancy in front of students.

Sail on,
Dee

Outstanding post!!

Very well said and I thank you for posting it and agree 100%%

 

[fisherdvm]

I think it is unfortunate that an instructor does not want you to wear backplate BC in the pool. Students should be exposed to all types of BC configurations, especially when being introduced to rescue techniques. I think that they should be told that the BP BC's are easier to trim.

One of my PADI instructor teaches with his BP all the times. He is a technical diver, but does wear his snorkel in the pool, and on the OW dives. When he teaches AOW, he doesn't wear his snorkel.

The only reason why a shop or instructor might not allow you to wear the gear you chose, is if the shop does not carry such gear. In which case, I guess it is their right to ask that you wear the gear they sell (assuming that they will let you use it for free). The second reason might be they don't want you to look "too good" in the pool, while they are diving out of trim.

 

[vkalia]

Oh for the love of god! You HAVE to be kidding me. Please tell me that this is a joke and that you guys are having me on.

I agree that in some LDSes, the emphasis on making money can come at the expense of the diver's interests (although in the long run, this is a losing proposition for the LDS as well).

However, does anyone REALLY believe that in the real world, the choice of wearing a BCD vs BP/wings is one that creates a conflict of interest vis a vis student diver development? That a DM or instructor wearing a BCD instead of BP/wings is somehow detrimental to the student's interests?

Great ghu. What world are you guys living in? Even by Scubaboard's theoretical rationalization and hair-splitting standards, this is a new one for me: that, of all the many many many things that can affect a student diver's development, the DM or instructor's choice of equipment is one that has any kind of material impact.

And please - for the love of god - spare me the homilies about how great your diving has become since you switched to BP/wings. I have been diving with BP/wings for over a decade, before DIR made it tec-wannabe-chic. I have PERSONALLY seen thousands of excellent divers execute lots and lots of challenging dives in BCDs. Anyone who claims that BCD vs BP/wings is anything more than a matter of personal preference is full of it.

And before you accuse me of bias - let me point out that:
1/ Personally, i *agree* with the OP - it doesnt matter whether he dives with wings or a BCD
2/ I dive and teach in BP/wings and BCD (depending on which one is closer to me in the morning while I am setting up my gear) without any meaningful change in my buoyancy or trim, for that matter.
3/ I am not involved in gear sales, so I have no axe to grind one way or the other.

I think we need to spend more time in the water and less time dissecting and trying to extract profound revelations from irrelevant details.

Vandit

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

I am sorry - does anyone HONESTLY believe that for an OW student, the difference between a traditional BCD and BP/wings is something that can actually create a conflict of interest? That requiring a DM to wear the same type of gear as the instructor and DMs is somehow detrimental to the student's interests? That if the OP actually wore his BP/wings instead of a traditional BCD, the students in the course would somehow be better off in ANY kind of meaningful way.

You have GOT to be kidding me. Really. I am absolutely amazed at sanctimonious twaddle that I am hearing.

Vandit

I'll try to explain this to you, but I can't understand it for you. You're gonna have to do some of the work yourself here.

Nobody wants to find out they threw away $500 on a fancy new BC because their DIR trained OW instructor wasn't free to give his best gear advice. It's not sanctimonious, it's just a practical fact.

After all, why do you think they are requiring the guys to wear the shops gear? Clearly, it's because they want the instructors to encourage the students to buy their gear rather than what might be best.


The question is, can you trust your instructors? Are they working for you or the shop?

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

Oh for the love of god! You HAVE to be kidding me. Please tell me that this is a joke and that you guys are having me on.

Vandit

Are you gonna be okay? Is there someone we should call?

You seem pretty upset about all this. Maybe you should step away from the keyboard for a little while, or breathe deep or something.

I can tell you I wasn't kidding you. I know people that waisted lots of money at dive shops because they thought the instructors were giving them their best advice. Then they come on here and find out they paid a whole lot for something that wasn't all that good. I don't know if that qualifies as a profound revelation, but it sure doesn't seem like an irrelevant detail.

 

[rockg]

Although the last post by the gentleman was a bit pointed, I agree. I've been DMing off and on for everything from OW to Trimix for about 15 years and I believe that if your DMing, you should be at a level where you could do it wearing anything. What determines what I'm wearing is whether I feel like putting my tech rig together that morning. I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere on this forum, but the problem with some of the agencys is that someone can feasibly be diving for less than a year and become a DM. A good DM needs to have as much experience if not more in the water than the instructor! Yes, a DM should set an example for the students, but the students, who are worrying about getting through the course aren't going to be looking that hard at the DM's rig, what they will notice is their experience, knowledge, and helpfullness. I enjoy being a DM...I have had the opportunity many, many times to do the instructor thing, but it's not for me. I feel I best serve the diving community by being a DM...that's just me...

DM's are the backbone of the dive industry...