Getting separated on a Coz reef dive...

[ggunn]

It's great that you've had no issues with your knot system in 260 dives. Compared to the number of dives Betsy's probably done in Cozumel (she is a DM and runs her own dive op there for many years now...) she has some basis and knowledge for her comments and I'd bet thousands of dives more then most of us. Sometimes in diving it's good to try and learn from other's experience instead of having to learn by making a mistake yourself... There are enough risks in this sport as it is.

As to the knot system...

The "correct" depth for a safety stop is an estimate. If one does the math, it works out that if the 15 foot line to the buoy were going out at a 45 degree angle from the diver to the surface (and with me pulling down on the line, it would have to be a hurricane at the surface and a huge differential current speeding by just over my head to do that), then the diver would still be at 10.6 feet.

The DM's I dive with use a marked (frequently with black paint) line to their buoys all the time, and whether I use theirs or my own, I have never seen the line deviate more than a couple of degrees off the vertical, which translates to what, at most a couple of inches difference in depth?

The DM's also clip their buoy reels to their BC's, and I have never heard of a single case of a buoy being snagged by a passing boat and the diver thusly being snatched out of the water.

As to the solo diving thing...

I have never gone diving without my wife as a buddy, and she keeps me in line. If I anger a DM and a boat full of divers, it's over as soon as I leave the boat, but if I anger my buddy, then it's not over until... well, let's just say that it takes a bit longer. ;^)

Peace,

 

[Christi]

- "actions like this are also terribly unfair to the other paying customers" Why is it unfair? Shouldn't it be unfair to me to be forced to come up after :30 because one guy on the dive is an air hog? It's not my fault that he's overweight, out of shape, and chain smokes. If I divide out my costs for a trip to Coz, it comes to a little less than $100 per TANK. Thirty minutes into the dive, I'm at 1800 PSI and he's at 500 but we should ALL surface? Please.

Again Charles, I am not on your case. I have no clue how skilled of a diver you are, but that's not the point really. I only stated my opinions, as you requested.

I agree...and I didn't say anything about the fact that you should surface with 1800psi remaining. The whole group shouldn't have to surface when the first guy runs low on air prematurely, that too is unfair. This is why I either divide the boats up accordingly, give a bigger tank to the air consumption challenged, and have the DM stay down with the last divers. He sends his line up for the divers that need to surface early and they surface with the line. I also routinely send an extra DM if I need to. There are a variety of ways a dive op can deal with this without anyone feeling cheated...and there are several dive ops who do deal with this accordingly on a daily basis.

 

[scubawife]

Gang,

I knew I was going to take a beating over this when I posted it. I knew someone was going to call me reckless and start in with the "I wouldn't want to be on the boat with you" nonsense. It's funny hearing all the criticizm from all of you who've never even met me, let alone been in the water with me.

At any rate, let's look at some of the points:

-Charles is diving solo: That is inaccurate. I'm diving with a group, but I'm diving my profile. I usually keep the group within sight. If they disappear around a coral head I may or may not find them again. If I do then so much the better. If I don't, I'm completely comfortable and accepting of the risk associated with finishing the dive on my own.

- "actions like this are also terribly unfair to the other paying customers" Why is it unfair? Shouldn't it be unfair to me to be forced to come up after :30 because one guy on the dive is an air hog? It's not my fault that he's overweight, out of shape, and chain smokes. If I divide out my costs for a trip to Coz, it comes to a little less than $100 per TANK. Thirty minutes into the dive, I'm at 1800 PSI and he's at 500 but we should ALL surface? Please.
-Charles

I'm not attacking you, just commenting on what you're doing. I don't know you, just what I've read you post. What you're doing could very likely come across totally different in person.

I personally wouldn't keep diving with a shop (or DM) if my dives were cut that short. I know what kind of diving I want to do and I do my best to find the dive op that caters to what I want. They tend to attract like-minded divers. If I go to a destination where my only choice is the on-site shop at the hotel then I know that in advance, do some research, and if I still go there then I accept what I know I'll get. If it's short bottom times then that's what it is and I know that's what I signed up for.

In Cozumel, however, I don't need to settle. There are many dive ops to choose from. Small boats, big boats, those who cater to experienced divers, those who are more novice diver oriented, those who stick to very conservative and limiting plans, are on the clock, etc., those who let buddy teams surface as they reach the predetermined PSI, and just about every conceivable diving desire and style in between. I've only used two dive ops in Cozumel because I've been happy with the type of diving and service I've gotten. If at some point in the future my needs or wants change then with no reflection on them, I will find another op that's a better match at that time.

If you're diving your own profile then you aren't diving with the group. The group is diving one plan and you are diving another. If I was looking for long, slow dives and I was on a boat where a 30-40 min dive done as an aerobic activity was the standard, I wouldn't be too happy either. But, I'd be more inclined to go find another boat then to do my own thing. By stating your intention to dive your own profile aren't you kind of telling the operation that what they offer isn't good for you?

If I want a more independant dive experience then I'll pick a destination that doesn't have rules requiring me to be in the water with a DM. There are many places where the boat isn't much more then a taxi to the dive site. You determine your own dive plan and off you go with your buddy or solo. Nothing wrong with that if it's the accepted procedure for where you're diving.

 

[scubawife]

As to the knot system...

The "correct" depth for a safety stop is an estimate. If one does the math, it works out that if the 15 foot line to the buoy were going out at a 45 degree angle from the diver to the surface (and with me pulling down on the line, it would have to be a hurricane at the surface and a huge differential current speeding by just over my head to do that), then the diver would still be at 10.6 feet.

The DM's I dive with use a marked (frequently with black paint) line to their buoys all the time, and whether I use theirs or my own, I have never seen the line deviate more than a couple of degrees off the vertical, which translates to what, at most a couple of inches difference in depth?

The DM's also clip their buoy reels to their BC's, and I have never heard of a single case of a buoy being snagged by a passing boat and the diver thusly being snatched out of the water.

As to the solo diving thing...

I have never gone diving without my wife as a buddy, and she keeps me in line. If I anger a DM and a boat full of divers, it's over as soon as I leave the boat, but if I anger my buddy, then it's not over until... well, let's just say that it takes a bit longer. ;^)

Peace,

When it comes to personal preferences and little tricks I'm totally for doing whatever works for you. Knot, don't knot. Tape, paint, whatever. Just wanted to point out that in the grand scheme 260dives isn't that many. Betsy probably has more Cozumel dives to her credit then most of us will ever have. She's diving there all year round in all conditions. I don't know her but I've read her posts on other boards and I'm sure she has a basis for what she said.

DM's that I dive with do have thier reels clipped to them but they unclip them when they deploy. I think (don't know and don't want to find out...) that the line would probably break before it yanked you up, or, you'd let go of the reel if it was a decision between getting your head slammed up under a boat or maybe surfacing without your marker.

You are right about your dive buddy! But isn't it great to dive with the same person all the time and just know what they're doing without having to guess? I had my first dives without my dive buddy this year and it was a bit wierd. I got lucky and had a great group so it worked out well.

 

[TSandM]

I have to say that I don't have an issue with people with good air consumption getting a longer dive -- Most of the dive ops we've been out with will send up buddy pairs who get low, and let the people with gas stay down. Sometimes it's just playing around under the boat, but that can be fine diving. In Indonesia, we tended to surface as a group, but that was after an hour or more of diving, and I was okay with it. I don't feel as though Peter and I are hurting the other divers "who have to wait until we've had an adequate surface interval". If you're going to be on the boat for an hour and a half, does another five or ten minutes make THAT much difference?

Finally, TSandM I am really surprised (quoting: "you can do whatever you want" and "dive any way that suits you"): What, did the DIR Kool-Aid wear off? lol....

I've never said that anybody else had to dive the way I do. Each of us chooses what works for him, and there's room in the ocean for all of us. I'm not going to buddy up with Charles, though

 

[cowboyneal]

T, I hope you know I was just kidding...OK, now that we've decided that Charles can continue to dive solo (since no one is going to dive with him) and that some of us have knots in (and on) our heads, I think this thread has definitely worn out its welcome...knots or not knots...since this is the Cozumel diving forum, not the Boy Scout Knot Forum or the 3 Easy Lessons on How to Die All By Yourself Forum...where are the little green people?

 

[betsyinczm]

Okay--this is getting too crazy, so here goes---

1) "Lingering" in the back is very different from disregarding the requirement to stay with the group, as the marine park law dictates. Of COURSE there are moments when the last divers are out of sight for a few minutes if there are swim throughs or coral heads blocking the DM's view. A good DM waits to confirm that everyone is accounted for before moving on.

2) Nobody should be forced to go up early if they still have enough air to continue to the designated bottom time.

3) The days of having to ascend with a buddy are over.........at least for me. I agree that that is just not fair and as a diver who came to CZM in the "old days" and always by myself, I made sure I would not be paired with an air hog who lasted 20 minutes......(I apologize to all air hogs).........I have a system where a single diver can ascend as LONG as they are swimming at 20 feet above the group where I CAN SEE THEM. Diving is expensive and no one should be shortchanged on their investment.

4) Thank you Scubawife-----I am also an instructor...........been here 17 years, more than 5000 dives.....and I dive personally with all my clients............but as Christi says, "what do we know".

5) As far as knots go..........I am glad some of you guys have had the good luck to have your buoy lines go within a few degrees of straight up............must have been a no wind/no current day!............when I send my line up, it is because someone in my group is ready to go up, but normally that is in the last 15 minutes of the dive and I may still be at 40-50 feet. I can tell you that my line has used itself right up sideways many times and I am talking over 200 feet................my line is headed to Cancun and there is nothing I can do to stop it!..........

6) If you can hang with your line at exactly 15-20 feet straight up, you may have too much weight on your belt.

7) Lines being caught in propellers?..............yep.....happened to me.........(not my boat)...........and yeah, it would be nuts to stay attached to the line after deployment.

8) Christi beat me to it (I was fuming here and neglected to post.........hahhaa) about the legalities and I am now NOT talking about park rules. IF something should happen to someone who disregards park rules and dive boat etiquette, then who do you think takes the brunt of the huge mess that causes? The DM and the crew. I know several people in my many years here who lost their jobs through no fault of their own. The biggest one that comes to mind is a DM who was brow-beaten by a "know-it-all" instructor from the states to go somewhere he shouldn't have on a night dive..........two people died...........and, ironically, I saw him driving a truck yesterday. Off subject, the captain of the boat I used for years witnessed the beheading of the British singer (in FRONT of her two kids)..............he has had to be in court over and over thus missing work............and he only happened to be in the area witnessing this happen...........but because HE called it in, he now missed income while the investigation continued.

9)Charles says this is his "personal decision".............(who just said selfish and rude?)..............there are many places here that will provide a person with a private DM................in this case why not do that? One on one and off you go---seems like the obvious solution, no?

10) My boat tracks my bubbles and does not need my sausage to know where I am with my group.

11)I make sure my students realize that TOMORROW they might need to save MY life.............you just never know when there might be an equipment malfunction or a medical emergency underwater. Sure the training is "in the event" of a problem, but how many people don't get that..............it could happen tomorrow..............and I would want someone within swimming distance of me...I don't care how many dives a person has-----anything can happen to ANYONE.......Charles won't have that luxury if something happens to him.

12) In my opinion, NO other paying customers should have to be compromised by a person who is not with the program.............it makes a mess, the captain is stressed, the mate is stressed and the DM is too while trying to please everyone.

Okay...........I'm done........did I cover everything??..........hahaha....my two cents or maybe many more.............Betsy

 

[betsyinczm]

CowboyNeal--------I think you posted while I was typing............good idea=end of story............haha.......Betsy

 

[cowboyneal]

Betsy you crack me up (although I know you are dead serious)...we just have to get on a boat together one of these days....

 

[ggunn]

6) If you can hang with your line at exactly 15-20 feet straight up, you may have too much weight on your belt.

Au contraire; I can be positive, negative, or neutral at a safety stop by changing how much residual air I carry in my lungs. Sometimes for grins, I hang in sort of a half lotus for the safety stop and then ascend without changing position. My line/buoy deployment is a bit different, anyway; I don't send it up until I am slightly below 15 feet, and then I am pulling down on it, so there's less chance it will be much off vertical.

7) Lines being caught in propellers?..............yep.....happened to me.........(not my boat)...........and yeah, it would be nuts to stay attached to the line after deployment.

I covered that, I believe - light line, light clip. I would not stay attached.

8)...Off subject, the captain of the boat I used for years witnessed the beheading of the British singer (in FRONT of her two kids)..............he has had to be in court over and over thus missing work............and he only happened to be in the area witnessing this happen...........but because HE called it in, he now missed income while the investigation continued.

Yeah, Kirsty MacColl. Sad story, that. "In These Shoes?" was a hit in the States; too bad she died too soon to see it happen.