German Diver Dies in Utila
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Hi Andy,
What part do you consider speculation? I do not mean to add speculation on this topic.
After opening up the dive light the gentleman's named and contact was written inside. We were in contact with the wife to see if she wanted the equipment back and she confirmed the dive light and computer belonged to her husband. So this isn't speculation, even if first hand on-site accounts say he entered with no equipment. Since the equipment was found at depth its quite possible the first hand accounts were misinformed by simply being unaware of equipment being underwater. Presumably they would have taken it themselves had they known it was there.
---------- Post added January 19th, 2013 at 02:45 PM ----------
The computer was in dive mode, and was still logging the "dive," which at that point was roughly 7 days. Not that it means anything, however. Most dive computers kick into dive mode once they hit water and the computer could have simply been a "tag-along" on his light cannon. Also, the light was not found at the edge of the water. It required a swim underneath a ledge to retrieve it, thus easily missed by people/rescuers even if they were looking for it. Personally speaking, where that light was found, I wouldn't have put myself there unless I was wearing fins/mask (and even then I didn't - I made my friend go get it), and I would have paniced if the light failed on me while there.
Hi Henry,
I would contest anyone who felt this was "just a swimmer."
Sorry if I misconstrued you, but if he wasn't scuba diving, and there were no mask/fins and snorkel (that you and I, or responders were aware of anyway), then I'm not sure what else you were suggesting.
"I cannot speak on the lack of fins/mask, but I can tell you that I personlly recovered the deceased's light cannon and dive computer which was left at the bottom of this cave. The light cannon was a proper cave diving light to the tune of $500 retail when new. From this alone I'm guessing the gentleman had experience in this environment."
A cave diving light doesn't necessarily donate cave experience or training.
"An interesting note on this dive light - it was obvious it had failed. It had a full charge on the battery but was inoperable. Perhaps the root cause of the accident?"
Speculation. The friend who last heard him through the chambers, reported he was lost, not much else is known.
"Additionally, he had a dive watch wrapped around the light cannon, still logging "the dive." So the idea of this gentleman going in with no gear is entirely false. Again, I cannot comment in regards to the no mask/fins, but that doesn't make any sense to me considering he was in there with $1000 worth of a computer and light."
As I mentioned it's common for many people that explore the fresh water caves to carry a dive light, even if they are just swimming around, eve with a mask. If the power goes off in my apartment, I'll go check probably wearing a dive watch/computer and carrying a dive light worth a similar value.
My point is this was a sad accident from swimming in a freshwater/overhead environment, and the deceased's wife and friends all stated he was not diving, simply exploring/swimming in there as hundreds of people do each year. I'm not sure why you wanted to contest this, hence why I can only infer it would be speculation, unless you have other information/facts.
Regards,
Andy
I would contest anyone who felt this was "just a swimmer."
Sorry if I misconstrued you, but if he wasn't scuba diving, and there were no mask/fins and snorkel (that you and I, or responders were aware of anyway), then I'm not sure what else you were suggesting.
"I cannot speak on the lack of fins/mask, but I can tell you that I personlly recovered the deceased's light cannon and dive computer which was left at the bottom of this cave. The light cannon was a proper cave diving light to the tune of $500 retail when new. From this alone I'm guessing the gentleman had experience in this environment."
A cave diving light doesn't necessarily donate cave experience or training.
"An interesting note on this dive light - it was obvious it had failed. It had a full charge on the battery but was inoperable. Perhaps the root cause of the accident?"
Speculation. The friend who last heard him through the chambers, reported he was lost, not much else is known.
"Additionally, he had a dive watch wrapped around the light cannon, still logging "the dive." So the idea of this gentleman going in with no gear is entirely false. Again, I cannot comment in regards to the no mask/fins, but that doesn't make any sense to me considering he was in there with $1000 worth of a computer and light."
As I mentioned it's common for many people that explore the fresh water caves to carry a dive light, even if they are just swimming around, eve with a mask. If the power goes off in my apartment, I'll go check probably wearing a dive watch/computer and carrying a dive light worth a similar value.
My point is this was a sad accident from swimming in a freshwater/overhead environment, and the deceased's wife and friends all stated he was not diving, simply exploring/swimming in there as hundreds of people do each year. I'm not sure why you wanted to contest this, hence why I can only infer it would be speculation, unless you have other information/facts.
Regards,
Andy
Hi Andy,
Appreciate the response.
I think we are mostly on the same page here. I do not think the gentleman was scuba diving/cave diving. That much we agree on and I did not mean to infer this, if that's how it seemed. I guess where the confusion lies (lays?) is I don't go from scuba --> swimmer. I tend to think there is middle ground, aka scuba --> freediver --> snorkel --> swimmer. You are correct that no one has claimed they found a mask/fins, so I understand your hesitation to call him a freediver. It wouldn't surprise me if someone found them and kept them, however, not realizing who it belonged to. But again, in my defense, I had the guys computer and light in hand recoverd from the cave after first hand accounts placed him in this cave without them. I suspect they not only were unaware of the light/computer, but also a mask/fins. But that is speculation on my part, but certainly not a large leap given other information regarding this incident. Furthermore, if this gentleman was purely swimming it is impossible for his equipment to be located where I found it unless we consider somone else went in there after him but before me and moved the gear. I think we both can agree on this being unlikely. Once a swimmer dives below the surfce and swims under a ledge a fair distance, it isn't a stretch to move them from a swimmer to a freediver - even without mask/fins. Again, speculation on my part, but I would be shocked if this gentleman was located where his equipment was found without the use of mask/fins. Of course, that could also play a huge factor in this tragedy - meaning no mask/fins got him into trouble.
We agree that a cave diving light doesn't immediately mean "cavediver," but after having wealthy resort guests come through my work place on a very regular basis I have not yet seen one recreational diver carrying a tec light. I'm no CSI expert, but again, it's not a large leap to make. Additionally, there were other clues with the light that showed a level of experience beyond a recreational diver. Various knots and clips were on this light, those traditionally used by tec divers.
Ok, maybe saying a busted light with a fully charged battery may have been a root cause could be considered speculation, but once again, its not a stretch. Dude dies in a cave, has a cave diver light with a faulty switch, and a fully charged battery. I don't need to be a CSI expert to make the obvious deduction.
I use a 99 cent Bic lighter to check a power outage. Maybe you carrying $1000 worth of lights and computer to check a fuse box is akin to an experienced tec diver always being over prepared?
Given the information I have on hand, regardless of "first hand reports" from people who were not in the cave and already provided incorrect information, I think most people would agree this guy didn't drop into a cavern to swim laps. The pool right outside his room would have been more than sufficient in this endeavor.
Finally, unless I'm mistaken, diagnosing accidents is what this forum is about. Due to the overwhelming lack of evidence in most diving accidents, we are left largely to speculate and create "what if" scenerios. So even if I am speculating... well that's what this forum is here for, no? There are threads in this forum with 100's of replies of pure speculation and no resolution.
Thanks for the discussion.
Hi Henry,
Just curious, what was the make/model of the light?
You're right, most people don't go to the cave to swim laps as you say, it's simply an explore/swim/dip kind of visit, however once you start going underwater in this environment regardless of the form, you are pretty much breaking most of the rules cave divers follow, unless of course you're a trained caver with the right gear.
I think trying to 'diagnose' is a bit too strong for this particular forum unless you really have a lot of spare time on your hands, maybe this weekend you do! I do believe in risk management, and studying accidents and analysis is part of that, but tend to go more on objectivity, than speculation and the coconut telegraph.
Hopefully this kind of accident doesn't happen in there again!
Regards,
Andy
Just curious, what was the make/model of the light?
You're right, most people don't go to the cave to swim laps as you say, it's simply an explore/swim/dip kind of visit, however once you start going underwater in this environment regardless of the form, you are pretty much breaking most of the rules cave divers follow, unless of course you're a trained caver with the right gear.
I think trying to 'diagnose' is a bit too strong for this particular forum unless you really have a lot of spare time on your hands, maybe this weekend you do
! I do believe in risk management, and studying accidents and analysis is part of that, but tend to go more on objectivity, than speculation and the coconut telegraph. Hopefully this kind of accident doesn't happen in there again!
Regards,
Andy
ianr33
Contributor
I know nothing of this incident, but I do know that a light canon (like this one presumably UK Light Cannon Dive Light discounts on sale UK Lights) is NOT a cave diving light. Cave divers do not use pistol grip lights.
I'm not sure why you used that light as an example, especially as you first note that you have no knowledge of this incident, but that isn't the light. I'm well aware of what tec lights look like, even though I am not a cave diver.
---------- Post added January 21st, 2013 at 03:19 PM ----------
Hi Henry,
Just curious, what was the make/model of the light?
You're right, most people don't go to the cave to swim laps as you say, it's simply an explore/swim/dip kind of visit, however once you start going underwater in this environment regardless of the form, you are pretty much breaking most of the rules cave divers follow, unless of course you're a trained caver with the right gear.
I think trying to 'diagnose' is a bit too strong for this particular forum unless you really have a lot of spare time on your hands, maybe this weekend you do
Hopefully this kind of accident doesn't happen in there again!
Regards,
Andy
Andy,
I do not remember the make/model of the light. What I remember off hand was it was a German manufacturer (I think, but pretty sure). This is NOT the light, but it's somewhat close -
Greenforce Monostar P7 H Hybrid set | Handheld | Lights | Divegear | Lucas Divestore
The entire body was smooth and didn't have the large protruding bulb. But it did have the handle like that one does, and as I mentioned some interesting knots I didn't recognize and clips a traditional recreational diver wouldn't use. When I first googled it when I did have the make/model and German website came up wth a price, which I had to convert to dollars to get the idea of it being over $500. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Yes, very bored this week
I had heard UPCO was installing a gate to keep intruders away making it more difficult to reach the cave. Maybe it is needed.
Cheers,
Henry
Hi Henry,
This is the UK distributor for a German company that make these lights Kowalski UK, Kowalski Diving Torches and accessories, I'm not sure if that rings any bells. They are very popular in the German market but mainly with recreational divers, I used to see them a lot when I worked in the Red Sea, with recreational divers only. I think what Ianr33 is referring to is trained and current cave divers tend to avoid any light that has a pistol/grip style handle.
I had discussed the gate with one of the landowners before as well, maybe having a BICA/Iguana station guide lead tours in there for people.
As they say ignorance is bliss and a lot of people that explore/swim/snorkel in that environment don't realize the dangers.
Talk soon,
Andy
This is the UK distributor for a German company that make these lights Kowalski UK, Kowalski Diving Torches and accessories, I'm not sure if that rings any bells. They are very popular in the German market but mainly with recreational divers, I used to see them a lot when I worked in the Red Sea, with recreational divers only. I think what Ianr33 is referring to is trained and current cave divers tend to avoid any light that has a pistol/grip style handle.
I had discussed the gate with one of the landowners before as well, maybe having a BICA/Iguana station guide lead tours in there for people.
As they say ignorance is bliss and a lot of people that explore/swim/snorkel in that environment don't realize the dangers.
Talk soon,
Andy
ianr33
Contributor
OP
Slamfire
Contributor
What I am not entirely sure is what are we discussing now. Is it the proper definition of "swimmer"? No mask, no snorkel, no fins. One pseudo technical light and an expensive dive computer watch separated from the "swimmer/free diver/pseudo technical tankless cave diver" recovered a good chunk of time after the body was recovered. I'm sorry, but if I were to head out into the bush only wearing an expensive dive watch and a grip style dive light, I would not refer to my intentions as free diving and much less cave diving. I would probably just call it "swimming".
I can't remember when was the last time I went swimming and did not do an immersion (even if the bottom is just at 3 feet). If I swim laps, I'll do several immersions. And if I'm in a river or swimming hole, of course I'll do immersions, with or without mask or fins. I would never call these excursions "diving". But hey maybe I've been missing out on logging many thousand free dives or dives... Call it what you will, at this point it seems just a semantics discussion.
I can't remember when was the last time I went swimming and did not do an immersion (even if the bottom is just at 3 feet). If I swim laps, I'll do several immersions. And if I'm in a river or swimming hole, of course I'll do immersions, with or without mask or fins. I would never call these excursions "diving". But hey maybe I've been missing out on logging many thousand free dives or dives... Call it what you will, at this point it seems just a semantics discussion.
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