Gear choices/critique and comment please!

[Them]

Too many choices, not enough real experience. I know I want to have my own gear though. Every bit of gear involves some trade-off and I don't necessarily know all I am trading. I have a ss backplate with oxy cheq 30lb wing and I am happy with that so far.

It's like I have a devil perched on each shoulder whispering in my ears about which direction to go. I'm sure they are both steering me towards wickedness, but I can't decide which wickedness to try (first).

On the right shoulder...
Yoke 1st stage regulator (brand?)
2 second stage regulators w/"normal" hoses
Brass SPG w/clip
Oceanic vt4 OR datamask/hud with air integration in either case
Wrist mountable compass?

I basically want to stay hands-free or nearly so, but keep the simple SPG just in case. Leaning towards Edge Epic regulator here. VT4 seems to be a few notches better than I think I really "need" (acknowledging I don't need a computer at all), but the datamask wins on geekness.

On the left shoulder...
DIN 1st stage (hog?) and DIN/yoke adapter
2 second stage regs w/ long hose
Brass SPG w/clip
Wrist mountable compass
Bottom timer? I have a dive watch that will do me for awhile.

This is more the tech wannabe mix, which I can kinda see in that while most people I've talked with about diving are going a mile a minute on Cozumel, Fiji and so on, I'm thinking about glacial lakes, the western coast of north America from Alaska down, and so on.

In either case...
Aluminum 80cf (yellow) with din/yoke changeable valve (to start) - or should I look into larger?
Skin/minimal suit (to start)
Illumination - still thinking this through
Of course lead and glue (all the little bits that hold the rest together)

Thoughts? Counterpoints? Sanity checks? The dollars up front aren't as important as the dollars (or dive minutes, or life minutes) lost due to bad choices.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Colliam7]

A few thoughts.

It appears that your primary choices are 1) yoke / vs DIN regulator, 2) standard hose lengths vs long hose / bungeed necklace, and 3) air-integrated computer vs simple bottom timer. The common elements appear to be 1) wrist-mounted compass and 2) brass / glass SPG with a clip.

Personal biases affect my comments - best to get them out at the beginning.

1. I bought a DIN regulator as my first post certification gear purchase. Used a DIN-to-yoke adapter for quite a while when traveling, but have subsequently gone to the practice of carrying parts to allow me to convert the first stage back to yoke in the (very) few instances where that is necessary. The conversion takes about 60 seconds. I DO NOT like the adapter - brings the first stage too far toward my head, where I am constantly bumping it.

2. I changed to a long hose / bungeed necklace alternate as my primary recreational single tank configuration after about a year of diving and have never looked back. I much prefer it, although I also dive a reg with standard hose lengths for Confined Water teaching, and have no real problem with that. What I particularly like about my configuration is the bungeed necklace - it is there, easily accesible if I need it, etc. I have never had a real OOA situation where I needed to donate a second stage so I can't say from personal experience how much better it might be than standard hose lengths, although that is something I believe to be true.

3. I dive and own both AL80s and larger HP steel tanks. For wetsuit diving with anything thicker than 1mm, I prefer steel because of bouyancy / trim characteristics, but either AL or HP steel is OK. For single tank diving with either a 5mm wetsuit or a drysuit (rare these days), steel is the only choice.

4. I have long used an air-integrated computer (Suunto Vytec for many years, now a Suunto HelO2) for convenience - a slight rotation of my left wrist allows me to check my pressure. My primary source of pressure data is a SPG on a clip. A computer is also my only source of depth information (which you didn't mention, but which you need to consider in the left shoulder devil's recommendations)

So, my comments on your devilish dilemma:

1. Go with a DIN reg. You won't regret it. As for brand, pick one that can be serviced locally. There are so many good regulators out there, it is hard to say one is clearly better. I happen to prefer Apeks and Zeagle, but own and dive Mares and Sherwood as well.
2. Go with a long hose (either 5' or 7') configuration with a bungeed necklace alternate second stage.
3. Go with steel tanks, since you are comtemplating colder water diving ('I'm thinking about glacial lakes, the western coast of north America from Alaska down'). They provide more air, and better weight / trim characteristics for thicker exposure suits.
4. I personally think (and agree with your thinking) that the VT4 is overkill. Do you really care to monitor the pressure on three tanks? I do not care for HUD technology in diving (nothing against Oceanic or the Datamask product) - it is technology looking for an application, rather than meeting a need. While "hands-free" is great in some aviation situations, I am never in a diving situation where i need instant pressure / depth / time informtion, AND cannot allocate a hand to check my SPG or computer. At the risk of sounding too DIR, it is a potential failure point. Get a good, multi-gas, wrist computer with a bright, readable screen. Wireless air integration is a nice-to-have, not a need-to-have, and if you choose to pursue it you can probably go down that road for less money than the VT4 plus transmitter, or the Datamask package.
5. Finally, if you are thinking cold water, why are you considering 'skin/minimal suit (to start)'? Just curious.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I would go with the left shoulder, although you will need a 6mm wetsuit or better yet, a good drysuit for your travel choices. I use a drysuit year-round in Southern California. Even in late July, the temps at my local sites are still 51-52°.

 

[Them]

Re: the minimal suit to start.

I figure exposure protection is like clothes... You can't really get through life with just one set. My local practice area is, for the next few months anyway, quite warm (it was in the 80s down to the thermocline this weekend) so that's what I'll be practicing in right away. As it cools down I definitely think a dry suit will be in my future. When I travel I'll match packed equipment to expected conditions.

This is more "nothing thrown away after a few uses," than, "all I'll ever need/want.

DIN reg seems to be the consensus of the sort people who respond first to these threads.


Re: depth on "left shoulder" yes, missed it, but wrist mount again.


Re: datamask....the first time I heard them mentioned was actually not on a scuba forum or from a recreational diver, but a commercial diver who was commenting on my watch and basically said it was nice but useless for diving (obviously I didn't dive but I use that bezel a few times a day), and how he regularly had to work in visibility where he could barely see a watch held against his mask, but he had a display inside the mask..... It was both a good argument for the hud and amusing.

Sorry for the piecemeal edited response, too many distractions this morning.

The idea of swapping mount types on the regulator is interesting as something to keep my eyes open about. I'm not an adapter fan in general but that has nothing to do with scuba.

I was thinking the al80 because with the ss backplate in warm water (no suit) I think my weights will already be minimal once I have everything sussed out. Going steel would probably mean an al backplate....not the end of the world of course. For travel I suspect I'll be trying to rent tanks at my destination, right?

The computer is a boggle for me. I like the idea, I want some of the features, but there is just no way they are worth some of the prices being charged. That said, if I do buy it might as well be something amusing.

 

[TSandM]

DIN vs. yoke, for me, would come down to whether the majority of my diving was going to be local, or Caribbean and Hawaiian warm water travel. If the former, DIN with an adapter; if the latter, yoke. We keep a pair of yoke regulators specifically because we know that Maui, where my in-laws live, is not well supplied with DIN tanks. But we have a ridiculous number of regulators; if you are trying to make a decision about only one, make it toward the place where you do the majority of your diving.

I am a strong proponent of the long hose/bungied backup setup. It has a number of advantages, including the fact that your backup is directly beneath your chin, so if you lose your primarily regulator, or fall getting into the water (something to which I have been prone) you know EXACTLY where a working regulator lives. I have yet to prevent an accident by donating gas to anybody, but I've saved my own bacon several times with that bungied backup.

In addition, the setup is very streamlined, allows comfortable gas sharing when it's necessary or convenient, and solves the pesky problem of how to secure a backup regulator in a manner that keeps it from coming loose but still allows it to be donated -- simple answer, don't donate the backup reg!

Although I keep my computer on my right wrist (and I would NEVER do otherwise -- having my depth available at a glance, all the time, is worth a ton to me), I haven't ever felt motivated to set up any kind of air integration. Transmitters are expensive and can be finicky, and since I only check my pressure at five minute intervals at MOST, spending several hundred dollars to have the information on my wrist just doesn't pencil out for me. I'd rather spend the money on charter fees! And I'd hate to invest in something like the Data Mask, for the simple reason that anything that CAN be left behind or dropped, eventually will be . . . I mourned the loss of my "perfect" mask, when it came off the truck tailgate and shattered, but I would have mourned the loss of something as expensive as the Data Mask even more . . . And the only real utility I can see for it is if you dive habitually in zero viz, and outside of public safety divers, I have a hard time understanding why someone would do that.

You can, of course, buy a wrist computer that is capable of accepting a transmitter, and if you subsequently decide that is something you really want, you can add it. My husband inherited my Vytec, and promptly went out and bought a transmitter for it. He likes it, even though all too many dives are preceded by a bit of profanity as he attempts to get the thing to sync . . .

 

[Kitty_Kat]

The points already made about DIN vs. yoke are definitely good. Think about where you will be doing most of your diving and pick based upon what's easily available in your area. I use a DIN reg locally when I'm diving with my own steel tanks, but also own a yoke set up which I use when traveling and in the pool. I do like that my DIN set up protrudes less from the tank and i never seem to smack my head on it which is not always the case with my yoke reg...

I also like the long hose set up with the bungeed alternate, but again have no problem with the standard octo set up. I like having my alternate air source right below my chin where I can always find it. I've had my primary reg kicked out more than once in very poor vis by a student and definitely like not having to worry about finding my alternate. I know some people worry about explaining this set up to new divers or insta buddies, but it's really simple to cover in your pre dive chat.... and in a real OOA emergency your buddy is probably going to grab the one in your mouth anyways. I do use the standard reg set up with the very visible octo in the pool and have no problem with it. I do cringe every time I see an octo getting dragged though the sand/dirt with this set up though...

I would also suggest a steel tank if you're planning on cold water diving!

 

[Colliam7]

I figure exposure protection is like clothes... You can't really get through life with just one set. . . . This is more "nothing thrown away after a few uses," than, "all I'll ever need/want.

Very true about the suit. I used to say, 'I dive two suits - a 3mm for water at or above 73 degrees, and a drysuit for anything colder. I have now expanded that to, 'I dive a 1mm when water temps are in the 80s, a 3mm down to 73 degrees, a 5mm down to 65 degrees, and a drysuit for anything colder.' This weekend, I dove a quarry with surface temps in the 82 degree range, and a thermocline at 20 feet where the temps dropped to 73 degrees. I was quite comfortable.

I fully agree with your philosophy about buying.

Re: datamask....the first time I heard them mentioned was actually not on a scuba forum or from a recreational diver, but a commercial diver who was commenting on my watch and basically said it was nice but useless for diving (obviously I didn't dive but I use that bezel a few times a day), and how he regularly had to work in visibility where he could barely see a watch held against his mask, but he had a display inside the mask..... It was both a good argument for the hud and amusing.

I would agree - for commercial diving in zero visibility, a Datamask would probably be great. I usually don't dive in those conditions so I can't offer informed comment.

The idea of swapping mount types on the regulator is interesting as something to keep my eyes open about. I'm not an adapter fan in general but that has nothing to do with scuba.

Doing the conversion really is ridiculously easy, but often overlooked as an option. It is actually quicker to convert the first stage than to swpa out two second stage hoses, an inflator hose and a SPG hose. I have a couple of yoke regs that I can take when traveling, but I am increasingly focusing in on using the same regs for similar conditions, and now find it cheaper and easier to change out the parts, to go from DIN to yoke to DIN. I usually do the conversion at home, just before (and after) a trip where I will probably find only yoke tanks. And, I now wonder why I have 3 DIN to yoke adapters.

I was thinking the al80 because with the ss backplate in warm water (no suit) I think my weights will already be minimal once I have everything sussed out. Going steel would probably mean an al backplate

It depends on your inhenrent bouyancy. I use a SS backplate for all single tank diving, whether AL or HP steel tanks. I like not wearing any weight, when possible. With the 5mm, and a SS BP, and a HP 100, I needed no weight this weekend. I use my AL plate for wetsuit diving with doubles.

For travel I suspect I'll be trying to rent tanks at my destination, right?

For travel involving flying or train travel - yes. When I drive (e.g. to FL, I take my own tanks.

 

[eelnoraa]

For single tank diving, I will suggest Yoke. After all, you won't be using single tank for tech or overhead environment. So the advantage of DIN is not obvious for recreation dive. Yoke will make your travel life much easier. When you decide to go tech or overhead training, buying more reg is inevitable anyway. And the cost of one extra 1st stage in DIN is neglible compare to the overal scheme of tech/overhead diving.

Replace the brass clip with a stainless steel bolt snap.

I started with AI wrist mount, but stop using it already. To me, it is a solution for being lazy. Why so lazy??

Datamask, I never understand the concept. First, it is such a high volumn mask, hard to clear. The front window is so far away from your face, making a very narrow vision in front. Second, information is only avaiable to your, you can't show it to your buddy if needed. Third, if you lose the mask, say strap break, you lose the computer too. Why make one failure into multiple failure. So I will say skip the datamask, get a low volumn ask.

 

[Them]

Ok, a few questions, starting with an ignorant long hose question... Actually first another of my asides so it is clear where I'm coming from. And this will probably sound worse than I intend but I am very conservative about some things (and I don't mean that in any political sense).

It took me about 13 hours to solo an airplane the first time, and of course you never stop learning. I got the open water cert with roughly 90 minutes in a lake, plus another few hours (under three fills) in a swimming pool. It shouldn't be surprising that I am not as competent a diver now as I was a pilot when I first soloed. The difference is not only that I can now dive whenever I want (unlike my first solo in a plane where my instructor watched me from the ground, worked with me for many hours afterwards, and had to specifically sign off on my subsequent solo flights) , but unlike flying where I wasn't allowed to carry passengers during training solos, diving culture says I am obliged to expose a "buddy" to whatever hazards my ignorance might create. It's a really awkward and morally ambiguous situation.
My ethical choices are to seek additional training to the point where I am unlikely to involve others in my doom, or go off the reservation altogether which is not the topic here.

FWIW I'm probably not really a menace to all around me, but the less you know, the more you think you know.

The point is, I need to learn. I need to do that locally vs booking a trip somewhere where where I could mess with someone's vacation. That means exposing myself to the opinions and biases of instructors...so I show up with a totally unconventional BC, and unconventional hoses, and I am not going to be well practiced with my new gear (noob, remember), and I just wonder what the reaction will be. Which is my ignorant question: Is going off the beaten path with equipment going to restrict my diving education and buddy choices?

As for the rest... Sounds like a little from each shoulder.

Datamask - off the list.

VT4-level computer probably still on though I'm open to alternatives. I guess you can call having a computer lazy, I'm ok with that. I'm also more time constrained than dollar constrained - an air sender isn't an either/or with travel or the like.

DIN reg, preferably one that can swap back and forth to yoke configuration.

Tank... Looks like a HP120 comes in at -11 to -2 (full to empty) buoyancy. A 80cf aluminum ranges from -1.8 to +2.6 lbs from what I can find.

I was using an aluminum 80 yesterday and w/ empty tank and 6lbs of lead I sank easily. I didn't try less, but that's without any suit. I suspect a steel would take me to sinking with 0 lead (still sans suit). Is that acceptable?

Cost wise, aluminum 80s are about $180 with a din/yoke valve. The HP120 looks like $400 with the same sort of valve. Worth the difference? Also, do shops charge different amounts to fill different size tanks? Do they all fill HP to capacity? The only place I've had a tank filled was "fills $8" but I don't know how any of that really works with different tanks.

Thanks for the thought and insight!

 

[mathauck0814]

Left shoulder, though I'd go with a computer that has a gauge mode rather than just a bottom timer. Bottom timers are useful in tech diving, but computers are more beneficial for your average run of the reef dive. Air integration and HUD are gimmicks that aren't necessary and add cost to configurations. Remember that the "left shoulder" reg is more than just useful in tec diving. The DIN connection is a more secure connection that can accommodate higher pressures.

The long hose/short hose configuration is useful in any type of diving (I have taught open water courses using that configuration with success) and the SPG will give you the right level of information and keep you streamlined. Further, that configuration will map well to your BP/W - far better than if you were starting out with a jacket BC, for instance. You're on the right path.

Also - don't bother with the AL80. Pick up a good steel tank, especially if you have aspirations of cold water diving (it will help you drop some lead and give you more capacity).