Fusion and p-valves -- How to handle the Lycra?

[LG Diver]

Hardly. It's a new concept, with no known track record, so I was already hesitant. I think the pricing for the tech skin already sucks (cost for two pockets is just as ridiculous as for the p-valve), I don't like the approach they took in not working s/t out with the early adopters who wanted a tech skin, and now the crazy pricing for this latest add-on. Sorry, I was on the fence to start (and I did like the concept), but all this added up makes this an easy pass for me.

That's a different statement than this:

And since it seems they have so little sense, I have no interest in considering the suit. Just feels like a rip-off (which of course it is). Stupid "policy" here makes me question the whole thing...

If you're just not an early adopter, or have reservations about reliability that's fine. Early adopters always take a risk. I bought an iPhone when they first came out, before the $200 price drop. Sure, I got a $100 store credit, but I was still out $100 compared to folks that waited a few months. Know what? I'm still very happy that I bought it when I did. To say that a "stupid" p-valve policy makes you question buying a suit, well...

I don't know how your LDS is pricing Fusions, but DRIS is selling the pocket option for $102 for two pockets- that's pretty fair in my book. Don't make decisions on MSRP.

 

[Rainer]

That's a different statement than this:




If you're just not an early adopter, or have reservations about reliability that's fine. Early adopters always take a risk. I bought an iPhone when they first came out, before the $200 price drop. Sure, I got a $100 store credit, but I was still out $100 compared to folks that waited a few months. Know what? I'm still very happy that I bought it when I did. To say that a "stupid" p-valve policy makes you question buying a suit, well...

I don't know how your LDS is pricing Fusions, but DRIS is selling the pocket option for $102 for two pockets- that's pretty fair in my book. Don't make decisions on MSRP.

Look, it IS a stupid policy (for me). It's a non-ideal p-valve (there are better valves, and certainly better values) and a really crappy install price. Does that alone make me question the suit? Nope. But that added with the other issues I see, lead me to pass. A crappy retailer attitude on price is meaningful to me. If it's cool with you, good on you. I really do hope the suits work out. It IS an interesting design idea. For now, I'll stick with my Bare and DUI dry suits. I really do look forward to hearing from those who have the Whites in a few years.

 

[divedry1956]

Someone brought up moving the valve from shoulder to wrist. Has anyone else found that the shoulder valve vents too easily. i.e. it is too high on the shoulder?

Found if I put my left hand on my camera to steady for a shot the valve starts to vent. Really annoying for tricky shots. Am having it moved to the bottom of my forearm, but never had this issue with my previous suit. I think the valve is just an inch or two higher than the Catalyst valve.

The Fusion being a very unique dry suit does dive a lot different than your conventional shell or even neo suit. Let’s take a look at why:
You probably already noticed when you get into your FUSION, zip up and you go to burp the air out, there is slim to no trapped air unlike a conventional dry suit. This is due to the snug outer Lycra/Tech skin that keeps the shell close and streamlined to your body. Something we noticed when test diving the suit before its release is you get a much more even air layer between you, the suit and the element, which equals a warmer dive. This streamline fit of the Lycra/Tech skin also squeezes every square inch of your suit, making it very easy to exhaust. If you are used to diving your dry suit with the exhaust valve open or nearly open you may have to adjust to diving with it tuned a little on the closed side.
“There is only two ways to dive, NAKED or DRY”

Cheers,
-Eric-

 

[TSandM]

I'm not particularly cheap, and I don't think most tech or cave divers are, or we wouldn't buy $1300 flashlights. But I have learned that I don't HAVE to pay extortionate prices for goods or services if I shop carefully.

I think you guys at White's have been pleasantly surprised by the response to this suit, and the quick development of the tech skin and pockets ought to tell you WHO is buying it like crazy . . . People who need to reach valves. By definition, this is an experienced crowd and one which has learned the important lesson of scuba, that goods and services are widely available and wildly different in price.

I love my suit, and I keep trumpeting that everywhere, and I will continue to do so. I was very disappointed when you guys changed the policy on the tech skin, because I was assured that there would be NO advantage to waiting to buy mine, because the tech skin would NOT be available as an option. Now it is, and it would have been a nice gesture to have extended the price for initial order to the customers who bought before that was available, but you didn't do that. Now you've made a decision about the pricing on the p-valve which has already turned one customer completely off buying the suit at all. It's up to you, but I'm seeing a series of decisions being made that aren't going down well.

I love my suit, and thanks for the heads-up that I need to research what kind of adhesive will hold on the bilaminate fabric.

 

[divedry1956]

Look, it IS a stupid policy (for me). It's a non-ideal p-valve (there are better valves, and certainly better values) and a really crappy install price. Does that alone make me question the suit? Nope. But that added with the other issues I see, lead me to pass. A crappy retailer attitude on price is meaningful to me. If it's cool with you, good on you. I really do hope the suits work out. It IS an interesting design idea. For now, I'll stick with my Bare and DUI dry suits. I really do look forward to hearing from those who have the Whites in a few years.

Since 1956,
Yes, the Fusion is a new concept on how dry suits should be dove or put together, but the bladder also known as the “DRY CORE” (the dry part of your suit) is technology we have been using at Whites for years. The same technology (seam construction and materials) are used in the suits for the Canadian Navy, Coast t Guard (U.S. / Canada), Fire Departments, Public Safety Teams, commercial/hazmat and even the U.S. marine CORE. Whether they are being used top side or for diving, Whites has had a great reputation for always building cutting edge product and standing behind it.
“There is only two ways to dive, NAKED or DRY”

Cheers,
-Eric-

 

[potablewater]

Initially I installed the valve underneath the lycra layer, so at that point no, the top part wasn't affected by suit thickness. Then I removed the cap (not the outer part of the valve, just the cap), pulled the bit of the valve that the cap screws onto through the lycra and then replaced the cap. So now the lycra is between the valve and the base of the cap and thickness becomes an issue.

The "p" in p-valve stands for paranoia, and I just don't like the idea of having a tube leading from the warm dry inside my suit out to the cold wet and generally unpleasant ocean without having a way of shutting it off.

Why do you say there is no way to shut it off. Both the Salvo with the "T" , and the Halcyon balanced allow you to close off the valve don't they. What am I missing?

Geoff

 

[potablewater]

I received my Fusion drysuit from Mike Pederson at Diverightinscuba last week and it is an amazing fit. I can't wait to get it wet. It came with the lycra skin, but I am awaiting the tech skin once the xxl-xxxl become available. I'll add to the praise, by saying Mike is the Best! I hope he doesn't burn out with the high level of customer service he provides...he and his operation are impressive.

So now the P valve is my top priority along with cutting the seals. I think TSandM and others on the board are on top of the current discussion with solid information. But I think White's needs to stop the foot dragging and tells us new owners what sealant you use on the bilaminate. I'm going to self install, and looking at the other valves on the suit you see the approximately 3" by 3" backing. I want to know what this is made of and how to adhere it to the suit. And it is nonsense for White's to not be forthcoming with this info. I have thought of using a GoreTex patch that has adhesive on it, and can be obtained from EMS or camping supply store. Cut the appropriate size hole in the patch first, then adhere it to the chosen spot on the thigh, then cut the hole in the bilam. Any thoughts?

Also, how bulky is the base of the P valve inside the suit, both for salvo and halcyon?
Is the OMS P valve the same as the H streamlined balanced valve?
Is the thigh placement of the valve critical to comfort or tube flow?

As you can see, I have lots of questions, and there are not enough solid working answers for an OCD type like me. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it should also be simple enough to get the basic installation instructions from the manufacturer.
I mean I did buy: Fusion with lycra, tech skin w/ pockets, MK3, MK3 jacket, Evo3, MK3 socks, white dry hood, white dry gloves! Now I want a P Valve! I'll do the work.
Whites needs to partner with me and other owners to advise us on the appropriate sealant, and backing material, and installation guidance.

Thank you all for allowing me to rant, but I want to dive this beautiful drysuit comfortably.

All the best,
Geoff

 

[TSandM]

I'm with you, Geoff -- It would be nice to know what adhesive works on the bilam.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I "THINK" the only issue with using aquaseal is that its a glue and adheres too well to the suit, making it almost impossible to get off without cutting it out

Dont worry Geoff, your tech skin will be here in a couple weeks and Im anxious to here how you like it after you dive it!! Thanks for all the praise, as it says in our signature, Our success is based on your satisfaction! And thanks to all of our loyal customers, we are growing at a great pace, but will never stutter on service

Thanks again to all and Im still looking for more info for diy P-valve....The thing that stays in my head that I heard when this suit was being introduced and even today, is thats its the easiest suit to repair! I have never, until this thread, heard it was not aquaseal friendly and with aquaseal being the biggest name in patching a suit, I think it would have came to light alot sooner. I really think it just holds too well to the suit and makes a permanent bond...not that its going to eat thru or ruin your suit

 

[S. starfish]

Why do you say there is no way to shut it off. Both the Salvo with the "T" , and the Halcyon balanced allow you to close off the valve don't they. What am I missing?

Geoff

They say a picture is worth 1000 words. Given the quality of this one I"ll say it's more like 150. Anyway, my concern was that the lycra/aquaseal layer would prevent the cap from being able to screw down all the way. Such is not the case.

I "THINK" the only issue with using aqualseal is that its a glue and adheres too well to the suit, making it almost impossible to get off without cutting it out

I've found that a bit of heat loosens up the aquaseal quite nicely. I had my valve installed with aquaseal on my old suit. After a bit of experimenting I found that by using a heat gun and a pipe wrench I was able to remove the valve from the suit in just a few minutes, incurring only a little cosmetic damage to the valve. I had to do it again once I realized that I had the hose pointing at an odd angle on my fusion (that's what I get for installing it while watching tv). The valve still works, I didn't have to cut any holes in the suits and nothing leaks. The one downside is that you do get left with a ring of aquaseal on your suit, but this hasn't caused me any problems yet. I Think the dried aquaseal on the bilam layer may even function like one of the aforementioned valve pads.

I'm told that if you don't want to use aquaseal then clear silicon, like the stuff you pick up at the local hardware store, also works. Personally, I'll go with the more permanent solution.

For those interested the aquaseal/lycra bit seems to be working quite well so far. The real test though will be to see how it's held up in a few months.

And last but not least, for those of you who may stumble across this thread trying ot find ways of removing aquasealed pee valve or the like, in my quests I read on other forums that 99.9% isopropyl alcohol will dissolve set aquaseal. It's a lie.