Frog Kick Blues

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I am not not sure if your current (comfortable) kick is really a flutter; from your description it sounds more like what i think of as a scissor. The reason I ask is that body positioning for flutter and frog should, in theory, be the same, I thought. Maybe an instructor can correct me if that is not the case?
 
I am always amazed by this site. This willingness of the members here to help other members is why I love ScubaBoard. As mentioned I do think I have a weight balance issue. I did move my tank as low as possible after feeling the change in balance from bringing my legs up. I may need to explore another way to balance my rig because I can not lower my tank anymore and I still have a balance issue. Also as mentioned I do think a deficiency in my perceived neutral buoyancy has been uncovered. Now I need to work on dialing my buoyancy on better. After I get my balance and buoyancy correct I also am using far more kicking motion than needed I will practice the modified frog as explained here.
 
If the frog kick is the most efficient kick, how come most free-divers use the flutter kick?
 
As mentioned I do think I have a weight balance issue. I did move my tank as low as possible after feeling the change in balance from bringing my legs up. I may need to explore another way to balance my rig because I can not lower my tank anymore and I still have a balance issue. Also as mentioned I do think a deficiency in my perceived neutral buoyancy has been uncovered. Now I need to work on dialing my buoyancy on better. After I get my balance and buoyancy correct I also am using far more kicking motion than needed I will practice the modified frog as explained here.
It is often hard for a diver to get a good sense of their underwater trim. While good horizontal trim is often emphasized, helping divers come to understand what that actually looks like and, more importantly, what it feels like is not necessarily given the same attention. Many divers feel like they are horizontal when they are, in fact, in a slightly 'head up' position. When they get truly horizontal, they feel like they are 'head down'.

Do you have access to anyone - a dive buddy, an instructor, or simply an avid underwater photographer, etc. - with a u/w video camera? One of the activities I find particularly useful in in buoyancy / trim classes is to shoot video of divers swimming underwater. I have them get into what they perceive to be a neutrally buoyant condition, then swim at a comfortable, 'normal' pace for several minutes, while I swim with them, filming. I have them stop and simply let their body go - no finning or hand sculling for at least a minute (usually 2). Then we get out of the water and they watch themselves. I can talk about what they look like until I am blue in the face (particularly if the water is cold) but the video helps them see things I simply cannot adequately describe with words alone. I do this in a pool and try to do it again in OW - the pool creates an artificial environment for some, in which they feel they are being observed, so they adjust their normal / natural finning and breathing behavior. I find this is helpful to me as well - at times I will have student divers doing something that doesn't seem right, but I cannot figure out what it is in 'real time'. Having film allows me to watch what they are doing several times, in slow motion if needed, which makes it easier to provide useful feedback.

So, if you can get someone to shoot video of you in the water, you might find the video helps you better understand what steps you need to take to improve B & T. It will also help with frog kick technique development.
 
I totally agree with Diveaholic on this. Any kick with scuba fins is done differently that that named "named" kick is doe to swim without fins. In fins, use very little knees with the frog kick, and do it slowly. Keep you body long, and movement subtle and smooth. Frog or flutter, too many people use too exaggerated a knee bend.
DivemasterDennis
 
I was frog kicking inefficiently for a long time until I saw some video of myself and others. Other people seemed so smooth in the water and I seemed to porpoise up and down when I kicked. I took a class where trim was a real focus. That's when it clicked for me. I wasn't in trim. I foot heavy, so with every kick I was simultaneously trying to kick myself forward as well as kicking up slightly to kick myself into trim. This made for a very inefficient kick.
After the class and figuring out what good trim felt like my frog kick started to improve immediately. I was getting more power per stroke without really changing the amount of power I put into each kick, I just wasn't waisting energy and redirecting the force trying to kick my self into trim.
 
I think the best practice you can do for frog kicking is not kicking at all. Practice staying in one spot, horizontal and neutrally buoyant, and getting to the point where you are not moving at all (other than if you are moved by a little current). Once you are able to do this, the rest should be much easier.

---------- Post added December 17th, 2013 at 09:55 AM ----------

If the frog kick is the most efficient kick, how come most free-divers use the flutter kick?

flat out speed.
 
If the frog kick is the most efficient kick, how come most free-divers use the flutter kick?

Every kick has its purpose. The flutter kick has a purpose that is well suited to what most free divers are doing. I will flutter kick on scuba when it is appropriate. Most of the time I frog kick. Sometimes I use a modified frog kick. Sometimes I use a modified flutter kick. When you are proficient at all the kicks, you learn when you want to use each one. When you can only do one kick well, then you are very limited in what you can do.
 
…flat out speed.

Freediving isn’t about speed at all, it is all about efficient use of oxygen and reducing CO2. Human muscle and bone mechanics favor the flutter kick by a huge margin when wearing fins.
 
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Freedivers also use a very different fin from most scuba divers. Doing a frog kick with fins that are three feet long would be pretty frustrating, I think.

When you perform a frog kick, you have propelled yourself forward, but if you start another one right away, the fin movement for that puts on the brakes for the kick before it.

I found out this is almost completely solvable! I had noticed for years that I was braking with the reset on my frog kick. The first insight was that it was due in part to stiff ankles -- if I totally relaxed my ankles during the reload phase, the fins would orient themselves to provide minimum resistance to the water, and the braking was greatly decreased. But the big insight was having Natalie Gibb take my frog kick apart during my sidemount class. She wanted me to kick with my knees all but tied together. It changes the mechanics of the kick into an almost circular motion, and reduces the braking to almost nothing. I'll warn you, though -- if you have a well-established frog kick and you start working on this, you're going to feel like an absolute buffoon for a while. I couldn't keep my balance in the water at the beginning, and I was cursing Natalie with each breath!
 

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