Fourth Element Argonaut vs. Santi Drysuits

[mj3dvfx]

Hi everyone.

I had the opportunity to go to a Fourth Element Demo Day recently and was able to spend some time wearing the Flex Argonaut in the pool. I have to say overall that it was | is a fantastic suit. It was light, seemed really durable, "flex"able meaning I could reach anything I needed to from my tank valve to my toes with relative ease, seems like the price point is at a sweet spot for the market along with that it's also really sharp looking.

Just wondering if anyone could offer up some information on differences or preferences between the Fourth Element Argonaut and the Santi elite or eMotion.

Thanks in advance.

 

[WhiteSands]

Hi I'm in the same boat. Started a thread on it too. I have not dived any of them but these were my impressions just looking at them.

Argonaut cordura - really sharp looking & beautiful suit. Very nice pockets. However I held the Santi emotion & this suit in hand & the emotion was noticeably lighter. Santi's ripstop is as tough as cordura so I will prefer the Santi.

Argonaut kevlar - I am turned off by the color. Reminds me of algae.

Santi Emotion - Very light and soft material. Great well designed pockets. The red probably looks best cos I cannot find a single good pic of one in black. If you will not be doing a lot of high impact diving I will definitely get this suit.

Santi Elite - same as emotion just thicker heavier material.

 

[mj3dvfx]

Hey WhiteSands,

Thanks for posting! I went drysuit shopping again this weekend and was able to compare the Santi E-Lite & E-Motion, Fourth Element Argonaut Kevlar and DUI Flex Extreme.

Couple things. Immediately I found the pockets, boots and suspenders on the Santi and Fourth Element suits were far better than what DUI had to offer. As for pockets from what I understand you can get whatever pockets you want on a DUI, but even the alternatives like Halcyon or Light Monkey still don't compare to the pockets that come stock on the Santi or FE suits.

As a MTM suit the price point for each seemed comparable all at about 3K. I think the Santi suits would be a bit more - approx. $300 more. The other question I would have is in regards to zip seals. DUI as far as I know is the only company that offers zip seals. Is this really a huge benefit and enough of a feature to sway buyers though? How often do normal Latex seals on a suit actually rip and or corrode? Is this something that happens enough to warrant getting zip seals?

 

[Mikko Ilari Laakkonen]

I think the Argonaut is a 4.E branded Ursuit BDS kevlar. I have one and it is very good and light suit. Nothing too amazing about it but certainly nothing wrong. Kept me dry for quite a while already.

- Mikko Laakkonen -

I love diving and teaching others to dive.

 

[TSandM]

ZipSeals do make it easy to replace your own seals, but they lock you into buying the ZipSeals from DUI, and they are very expensive. In contrast, the SiTech ring system allows you to replace your seals with any seals you can buy, including silicone. The downside is that the neck ring is somewhat rigid and large, and can interfere with shoulder mobility for people diving doubles and wanting to reach their valves. For people diving single tanks, this is really not an issue.

ZipGloves to me are a very bad idea. First off, you lose the wrist seal in that transition, which means a torn glove means a flooded suit. A flooded suit in some of the places I dive means a terribly hypothermic diver by the time you get to shore -- it's just not a risk I'm willing to tolerate. Second, you have gloves on your hands from the moment you don your suit, which means you don't have fingers to deal with any other process or problems getting into your gear. For example, it's almost impossible to help settle your neck seal (if it's bunched or rolled) with gloves on your hands, so you have to turn to some non-Zip-Gloved buddy to help you out.

If SiTech would make their neck ring more flexible and smaller, I'd be an instant evangelist. If DUI's system permitted the use of other people's seals, the same.

 

[geoff w]

My LDS had a Fourth Element demo day at the pool a few weeks ago. It's a nice dry suit, but I wouldn't swap my personal DUI TLS 350 for it. The SiTech seals are nice, but I didn't see any improvement over the DUI zip seals. When I was in Alaska this summer, they had SiTech wrist seals, which were nice because you could get all suited up before putting on the dry gloves. When I used DUI's dry gloves with the zip seals, I felt like a total spaz trying to finish getting suited up with my hands in the dry gloves, but I think I could get used to it with a little practice

Make sure you look at the warranty on the zipper for any drysuit you're considering, since it's probably the most expensive part of the suit and the first thing you'll have a problem with.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Make sure you look at the warranty on the zipper for any drysuit you're considering, since it's probably the most expensive part of the suit and the first thing you'll have a problem with.

That is one reason we offer a lifetime warranty with our suits that covers zippers
Lifetime Drysuit Warranty Information - Dive Right In Scuba - Plainfield, IL

You're looking at some top notch suits, you won't be making a bad decision with either. There are some differences, but also some similarities. Most important with ANY drysuit, is fit. How do you fit into their size charts? Are you doing a custom? What kind of undergarment do you wear? How much durability do you need? Elite is a heavy duty suit compared to Emotion....which is lighter than 4th Element, unless your looking at the Kevlar....which someone said is "extremely" similar to the Ursuit, that has the same boots as Santi, which uses the same TiZipper Bare has used for years, which is located in Canada like Whites, which was NOT owned by Kevin Bacon but IS owned by Aqualung..... what a connection!

Feel free to call me, I can help sort thru it all, but it's easier over the phone vs. typing back and forth what could be done in a few minutes and a lot more info transferred.

 

[Mikko Ilari Laakkonen]

Also Bare used to be owned by Finnish company Amer Sport whics owns Ursuk, which makes Ursuit suits....

- Mikko Laakkonen -

I love diving and teaching others to dive.

 

[WhiteSands]

Hey WhiteSands,

Thanks for posting! I went drysuit shopping again this weekend and was able to compare the Santi E-Lite & E-Motion, Fourth Element Argonaut Kevlar and DUI Flex Extreme.

Couple things. Immediately I found the pockets, boots and suspenders on the Santi and Fourth Element suits were far better than what DUI had to offer. As for pockets from what I understand you can get whatever pockets you want on a DUI, but even the alternatives like Halcyon or Light Monkey still don't compare to the pockets that come stock on the Santi or FE suits.

I agree. I have not found nicer pockets than on the Santi and 4th element drysuits.

As a MTM suit the price point for each seemed comparable all at about 3K. I think the Santi suits would be a bit more - approx. $300 more. The other question I would have is in regards to zip seals. DUI as far as I know is the only company that offers zip seals. Is this really a huge benefit and enough of a feature to sway buyers though? How often do normal Latex seals on a suit actually rip and or corrode? Is this something that happens enough to warrant getting zip seals?

The Santi also comes with self-replaceable seals. The choices are the Sitech and Viking systems. Sitech uses the Antares system, and I think the Viking uses the Bayonet system.

If you go to youtube and do a search for Sitech Antares and Ansell Bayonet, you can find videos of how they work. I was steered by multiple knowledgeable parties to go with Sitech instead of Viking, due to the Sitech being truly self-donning, and if your dry gloves flood, your suit still remains dry. You can also put on your gloves last by yourself after donning the suit.

For the Viking, you have to fix the gloves on the suit first, then don the suit, so you kinda lose the ability for fine manipulation. If the gloves tear, the whole suit will flood. There is also a little plastic key that you need to fix, and can easily get lost. However, from personal observation of the videos, it looks like the Vulcan could be slightly more robust.

I decided to go with the Sitech.

 

[mj3dvfx]

Wow, this all great information.

Interesting that no one has mentioned neoprene seals. I know for Santi you can get a neoprene neck seal, but am curious about neoprene for the wrist seals. Would this even be a good option?

At the moment I think I'm leaning more towards going all neoprene seals if possible or a neoprene neck seal with Antares wrist system.

I've also just read about the Santi Espace suit as another option. Seems like the same suit as the Elite, but with slightly different pockets and shell material. Instead of rip stop you get nylon.


Geoff - curious about the comparison between the Fourth Element drysuit you wore during demo day and why you wouldn't switch it with the DUI. Did you find something "off" or find something you just didn't like compared to your TLS?