Fourth Element Argonaut Kevlar vs Hybrid?

[stuartv]

The FE website only shows 2 options for their Argonaut suit - Flex (no Kevlar) and Hybrid. (Kevlar upper body and Flex lower).

But I've seen numerous pictures of Argonaut suits that clearly have Kevlar legs, too. For example, Josh Thornton's Argonaut suit that is for sale in the Classifieds right now.

What is the story there?

The Argonaut 1.0 had a full Kevlar option and now that they have the 2.0 they don't do the full Kevlar version anymore?

Why is that? I have only gotten one puncture in a dry suit (so far), and it was in the front, middle of my thigh. I was swimming through a wreck, taking pictures and not paying enough attention to my trim. I was in the oft-seen 45 degree angle or thereabouts I guess, when I swam over something sticking up from the deck. I didn't hit it hard but it put a neat 1/4" cut right into the suit (but no damage to my bare skin right underneath it).

Is the Flex material as resistant to cuts and punctures as the Kevlar they use?

If I dished out for a Kevlar suit, I think I'd want it to protect the front of my thighs, too.

 

[TotDoc]

The FE website only shows 2 options for their Argonaut suit - Flex (no Kevlar) and Hybrid. (Kevlar upper body and Flex lower).

But I've seen numerous pictures of Argonaut suits that clearly have Kevlar legs, too. For example, Josh Thornton's Argonaut suit that is for sale in the Classifieds right now.

What is the story there?

The Argonaut 1.0 had a full Kevlar option and now that they have the 2.0 they don't do the full Kevlar version anymore?

Why is that? I have only gotten one puncture in a dry suit (so far), and it was in the front, middle of my thigh. I was swimming through a wreck, taking pictures and not paying enough attention to my trim. I was in the oft-seen 45 degree angle or thereabouts I guess, when I swam over something sticking up from the deck. I didn't hit it hard but it put a neat 1/4" cut right into the suit (but no damage to my bare skin right underneath it).

Is the Flex material as resistant to cuts and punctures as the Kevlar they use?

If I dished out for a Kevlar suit, I think I'd want it to protect the front of my thighs, too.

According to the rep I spoke with at DEMA last year , the Kevlar in the legs was a little too restrictive for kicking. Not impossible , obviously , but they got feedback that it was noticeable . That got me to change my order to the hybrid based on that info , at a time when both were offered at the same price. The hybrid is REALLY comfy, and there is still Kevlar over the higher wear areas. I'm sure any part of the suit could get cut if you snag it right

 

[stuartv]

According to the rep I spoke with at DEMA last year , the Kevlar in the legs was a little too restrictive for kicking. Not impossible , obviously , but they got feedback that it was noticeable . That got me to change my order to the hybrid based on that info , at a time when both were offered at the same price. The hybrid is REALLY comfy, and there is still Kevlar over the higher wear areas. I'm sure any part of the suit could get cut if you snag it right

But there is no Kevlar on the legs at all, is there (on the Hybrid)?

 

[TotDoc]

But there is no Kevlar on the legs at all, is there (on the Hybrid)?

Mine has some kind of reinforcement over the crotch, butt down to almost the bend in the knee, and over the knees in front. I'm not sure if it's kevlar, but it looks like it could be. This is an overlay over the more flexible material

 

[stuartv]

I had emailed FE yesterday. Got a response today. They said they are no longer offering the full Kevlar suit. Only the Flex and Hybrid.

The Kevlar material is breathable very lightweight, and is particularly suited for divers who will have several surface intervals, where the breathability comes in to its own. The flex fabric has three layers – a rubber butyl layer sandwiched between two polyester layers. The nature of the construction makes it very tough and for wreck diving, or any other diving where abrasion or scraping is a risk, the flex is the better choice. However if rough use is less likely and you are going to be out of the water but still in your suit, the Hybrid would be best, due to the breathability of the Kevlar. Naturally of course, a puncture caused by wreck diving as you describe below would be considered fair wear and tear rather than a fault of the fabric.

I think it's really interesting that they say the Flex is better than the Kevlar for wrecks. I definitely would have thought Kevlar would be better than polyester for resisting cuts. Maybe Kevlar is better for cuts but the polyester is better for abrasion. And/or maybe the material they are using is a Kevlar blend with so little actual Kevlar that it just isn't as durable was the materials I normally think of that are "Kevlar".

Regardless, I think I'm going to get a quote from my LDS on the Hybrid. If they make an offer to order one that is as sweet as the deal they gave me on my Bare suit, I'll be putting my Bare suit up for sale and ordering the Hybrid. It looks like just about the be-all and end-all of drysuits. At least, for my needs. Especially with their bio-mapping deal for determining the fit.

 

[PT4476]

I own A FE Argonaut Kevlar. I found the fabric and seams not very rugged at all, especially the lower half of the suit. It was not up to the task of Great Lakes wreck diving, the lower half started to leak after around 100 dives. It has been repaired three times now, once under warranty and twice on my dime. It has been relegated to spare suit status now, my older Bare XCS 2 has gone back to being my primary suit. I'll be looking for a new primary suit soon, Fourth Element is not on the short list.

 

[tstormdiver]

I have the full Flex suit. I will attest to its abrasion resistance. Coming out of the water on its inaugural dive, I tripped & fell face first, with my double 108's on, onto a rocky surface (really hard on the knees). I was sure that the areas that hit hardest would start leaking immediately. Never did, just some scuff marks on the knees & arms. In fact, 120 (or so) dives later, it is still completely dry, even after a week of cave diving. The only minus to the Fourth Element suit was the wait to get the suit (nearly 3 months),.. that being said, it was a full custom, done off their Bio mapping laser measurements.

 

[Hamatchi]

One of the UK forums claimed that FE contracts Ursuit to make the Argonaut? If so you may want to look at the Black Pine. That looks like it's full kevlar. Ursuit BDS Kevlar, black pine · · Ursuit

 

[stuartv]

One of the UK forums claimed that FE contracts Ursuit to make the Argonaut? If so you may want to look at the Black Pine. That looks like it's full kevlar. Ursuit BDS Kevlar, black pine · · Ursuit

I did look at that. Since it seems to be accepted that the Flex material is actually more abrasion resistant than the breathable Kevlar, I think I would probably actually prefer the Hybrid.

Plus, the possibility of a custom fit via the Biomap process definitely has some appeal. Usually, off-the-rack suits fit me okay. But, with my Fourth Element Arctic undies, I tried on individual pieces and got the best fit with an XL top and a M bottom. I usually do take a smaller size for my waist and legs than my upper body in most any kind of clothes.

So, I am really interested in going through the Biomap process and seeing what they tell me. Hopefully, a standard size with the (complimentary) adjustments to arm and/or leg length will be all I need.

All dependent, of course, on what kind of deal my local shop will give me on the price. They've been very good to me in the past, so I am hopeful we'll work something out....

 

[Hamatchi]

How does the biomap process work? I thought you needed to go the FE specialist shop in London to do it. I have significant issues with fit and sizing. Basically I'm a 6'4 guy to the waist and a 5'10" body from the waist down. No way does off the rack work for me.