Fish feeding

[cdiver2]

I guess I just don't get it. As an underwater photographer, the last thing I want to do is shoot a fish eating peas. If you just want to get a fish closer to your camera, get an aquarium. If you want you shoot wild animals, shoot them in the wild and quit messin' with 'em.

Feeding fish throws off the ecological balance of an area - I have seen it happen in many places. It changes the habits and the species balance of the fauna.

If I feed a couple fish one day does it make a dent in the environment? Of course not. If I throw a candy wrapper out of my car window, it won't cause all the litter on the highway either.

What is it about humans that makes us want to get personally involved with everything? Why do we feel the need to domesticate the wild animals we go though such lengths to see in the wild? Do we really have to see butterflyfish eating peas in a frenzied mass? Do we really have to pet a moray? Puff up a puffer? Torment octopus? Isn't enuf just to observe these things the way they really live? Why can't we just show these animals we say we love a little respect instead of trying to covert the ocean into a petting zoo?

JMHO.....

So then it would be your contention that someone that takes divers out on tours and photography class to the same place's all the time will upset the balance.. After all the fish don't see humans every day, they don't belong down there.

 

[KevinB]

Sounds kinda hypocritical to me Tortuga Roja. So its okay to blast a high powered stobe in their face and that is something they encounter everday? That is a NATURAL encounter for the fish? We have all been on night dives and seen what the light does to fish... kinds stuns/blinds them and they start bumping into the reef. Gee, I'm sure the strobe has NO detrimental effect either... right?

Thanks for letting me know about the peas, I'll try that next time I'm out

 

[Tortuga Roja]

So then it would be your contention that someone that takes divers out on tours and photography class to the same place's all the time will upset the balance.. After all the fish don't see humans every day, they don't belong down there.

A better arguement would have been discussing the flash on my camera. I guess everyone draws their own line where they see fit. If I truly thought that I was doing any damage by fish seeing me, I would discuss that issue honestly and consider changing my practices. I do limit the amount of flashing I do. Especially on animals I know to be light sensitive (i.e. never more than one flash shot of a frogfish), and I include those thoughts in my workshops. That's where I draw my line and others on both sides will certainly disagree. But come on, comparing animals seeing people to people feeding and harassing animals is really kinda silly. Feeding animals changes their behavior and that is a fact. Whether it's birds being fed french fries or fish being fed peas or grizzlies eating garbage.

Fish counts have shown that there is a marked change in the numbers of each type of fish in an area where feeding takes place on a regular basis. I know of places where mulletseed butterflyfish, which usually are found in small groups or pairs, are in huge marauding schools swarming any human in the water. They are full of parasites and don't clean the turtles that they used to. That's only one example.

But my main point was that I don't understand why anyone would want to go to all the trouble and expense to find someplace wild and then try to domesticate it.

<edit> Oops! looks like someone was bringing up the strobe while I was writing..

 

[cdiver2]

A better arguement would have been discussing the flash on my camera. I guess everyone draws their own line where they see fit. If I truly thought that I was doing any damage by fish seeing me, I would discuss that issue honestly and consider changing my practices. I do limit the amount of flashing I do. Especially on animals I know to be light sensitive (i.e. never more than one flash shot of a frogfish), and I include those thoughts in my workshops. That's where I draw my line and others on both sides will certainly disagree. But come on, comparing animals seeing people to people feeding and harassing animals is really kinda silly. Feeding animals changes their behavior and that is a fact. Whether it's birds being fed french fries or fish being fed peas or grizzlies eating garbage.

Fish counts have shown that there is a marked change in the numbers of each type of fish in an area where feeding takes place on a regular basis. I know of places where mulletseed butterflyfish, which usually are found in small groups or pairs, are in huge marauding schools swarming any human in the water. They are full of parasites and don't clean the turtles that they used to. That's only one example.

But my main point was that I don't understand why anyone would want to go to all the trouble and expense to find someplace wild and then try to domesticate it.

<edit> Oops! looks like someone was bringing up the strobe while I was writing..

That's where I draw my line

As do we all have our lines
You see no harm with you conduct it gets the desired effect.

Now take the diver that lives in the middle of the US and has one chance to get a photo of a particular subject whilst he his there. This you take for granted, if you don't get the shot today no problem I'll get it tomorrow.

My line is feeding regularly in the same place. Molokini (spelling) crater is a perfect example no feeding, could this be something to do with the hundreds of snorkelers that descend on it every day?. I would like to bet that the problem started there most non divers have no idea about feeding fish and I would bet that in the past someone was selling food to the tourist to feed them.
Just a thought if your going to hug the tree make sure you get your arms all the way around and not just hug the parts you agree with. Outside of that its a case of where each one of us draws the line.

 

[Tortuga Roja]

As do we all have our lines
You see no harm with you conduct it gets the desired effect.

Now take the diver that lives in the middle of the US and has one chance to get a photo of a particular subject whilst he his there. This you take for granted, if you don't get the shot today no problem I'll get it tomorrow.

My line is feeding regularly in the same place. Molokini (spelling) crater is a perfect example no feeding, could this be something to do with the hundreds of snorkelers that descend on it every day?. I would like to bet that the problem started there most non divers have no idea about feeding fish and I would bet that in the past someone was selling food to the tourist to feed them.
Just a thought if your going to hug the tree make sure you get your arms all the way around and not just hug the parts you agree with. Outside of that its a case of where each one of us draws the line.

Yes, we all draw our own lines is exactly what I said. I'm merely explaining my reasons for where I draw mine. But I didn't say that something was ok with me because of the desired effect so please don't put words in my post. Where I draw my line is where I believe serious damage is done to the local ecosystem and can be proven. If anyone can show me where my practices are disrupting the ecosystem of a particular area - I will change. Because I believe that feeding wild animals is detrimental to their ecology, doesn't mean I have to avoid everything in the world that may cause some harm to some animal. If that were true, we would all be either Hindus or blood thirsty killers. I think you and I both fall in between somewhere.

These types of threads always bring out these black and white arguements. That means that if one thinks you shouldn't feed the birds at McDonalds he must also think you shouldn't drive cars because there is a possibility of a bird hitting the windshield. It's usually more nuanced than that.

I'm not sure from your post what you were trying to say about Molokini. For or against feeding there? You are right tho, a long time ago the boats were selling fishfood and it completely changed the environment there. Now that feeding there is illegal, some of the disappearing species are returning slowly. Not as well as they would if boats were more strict about people throwing bread and other garbage into the water.

The idea that my "drawn line" changes because of where I live is not valid. I felt the same way about fish feeding when I lived in Missouri. And, if I were to travel to Alaska, as much as I would like to get that perfect shot of a polar bear, I wouldn't feed one to get it.

...and I still haven't heard an explanation of why anyone would travel to a wild, exotic location and try to tame it.

 

[cdiver2]

Yes, we all draw our own lines is exactly what I said. I'm merely explaining my reasons for where I draw mine. But I didn't say that something was ok with me because of the desired effect so please don't put words in my post. Where I draw my line is where I believe serious damage is done to the local ecosystem and can be proven. If anyone can show me where my practices are disrupting the ecosystem of a particular area - I will change. Because I believe that feeding wild animals is detrimental to their ecology, doesn't mean I have to avoid everything in the world that may cause some harm to some animal. If that were true, we would all be either Hindus or blood thirsty killers. I think you and I both fall in between somewhere.

These types of threads always bring out these black and white arguements. That means that if one thinks you shouldn't feed the birds at McDonalds he must also think you shouldn't drive cars because there is a possibility of a bird hitting the windshield. It's usually more nuanced than that.

I'm not sure from your post what you were trying to say about Molokini. For or against feeding there? You are right tho, a long time ago the boats were selling fishfood and it completely changed the environment there. Now that feeding there is illegal, some of the disappearing species are returning slowly. Not as well as they would if boats were more strict about people throwing bread and other garbage into the water.

The idea that my "drawn line" changes because of where I live is not valid. I felt the same way about fish feeding when I lived in Missouri. And, if I were to travel to Alaska, as much as I would like to get that perfect shot of a polar bear, I wouldn't feed one to get it.

...and I still haven't heard an explanation of why anyone would travel to a wild, exotic location and try to tame it.

You seem to have got my drift and then lost it.
I am not trying to put words in your mouth what I am doing is trying to draw a parallel with what you do and what the OCASIONAL diver doe's feeding a fish once.
My line. An occasional diver feeding a fish is not taming the wild, the problems come when it is done continuously as in Molokini as it used to be. A diver drifts along a reef and feeds an allusive fish doe's no more harm than you taking divers to get a photo of a Moray time after time.
The point about living in the middle of the US. If a diver comes to you and says he wants a photo of a specific fish and you say no problem I know where we can find one, I see him in the same spot every time I dive there. It becomes accustomed to divers, The same can not be said if a diver on vacation feeds a fish and moves on, no harm done as it is not done regularly.
Funny how my guess about Molokini hit the nail on the head.

I am against feeding on a regular basis where it alters the behaviour but see no harm in a odd diver here and there. Molokini and Hanama Bay (spelling)would definitely be off limits from what I have seen the damage has been done, I suspect with unknowing tourist and locals selling food to feed the fish, not divers. In fact I think it would do no harm to close these down for at least a year.

 

[Tortuga Roja]

Ahh, we're getting closer to agreeing.

But to clear up something: I do not take divers to the same moray time after time. Except for a couple that hang around particular moorings - because they are fed there - morays don't stay in in one hole for longer than a couple of weeks max. This has been my experience except for one big ol guy that shows in one coral head sporadically. I haven't taken a pic of him in at least 18 months.

I will give you that if someone wants to get turtle shots, there are a few cleaning stations that most guides know and use too often. I have thought about the impact we have on them but they don't seem to act differently toward divers than those found in more wild spots. I really don't think there is damage being done but I can't be real sure.

I totally agree that an occassional diver drifting on some out-of-the-way reef that drops a little food isn't doing much harm. The problem is that the typical tourist isn't diving in some off beat reef somewhere. He/she is on a tourist boat or a recommended shore dive where people go everyday. Luckily, the better boats don't allow feeding.

 

[Tortuga Roja]

oops. can we delete a double post?

 

[KevinB]

C'mon. All this talk and I only have one recommendation for feeding peas to butterflyfish? I didn't know they would eat peas.

Okay, so if I use bait from a bait shop what would I carry the bait in while underwater? I would need something that is easy to deploy that bait into the water but yet I don't want to leave a chum streak in the water either. Maybe chop up the bait into small chunks and use something like a hair dye bottle so I could squeeze chunks out? What do the pros here use?