Fire on dive boat Conception in CA

[DiveFlyDive]

This post may be getting more off-topic, but with all the talk about batteries as potentially the initial cause of this tragedy, here's some food for thought when thinking about remedies for the future.

Extinguishing lithium battery fires is something that has bothered for me some time. I'm a chemist and my labs regularly work with highly reactive metals such as sodium, potassium, magnesium and lithium. @stuartv mentioned he's played around tossing bits of sodium or potassium into water ("kids don't try this at home"). Unlike sodium or potassium, lithium metal bubbles only slowly when dunked in water, and would appear to be the least reactive. We can't use standard water or CO2 fire extinguishers in my labs, they would just add "fuel to the fire", since those metals will even rip oxygen out of CO2 (it's a great lecture demo, btw). Blowing CO2 onto a metal fire isn't that much different than using water (or even air) - the fire just gets hotter. We have to use "metal-X" dry chemical extinguishers (ca. $800 each).

Lithium is quite an odd-ball. The problem is lithium can react ("burn") to pull oxygen out of the stuff in most dry chemical extinguishers, and even out of GLASS (I've seen it). Hint: Glass is melted sand. "Smothering" a Li fire with sand will not put it out. To a lithium fire, SAND is just another source of oxygen. There are special extinguishers for lithium fires ("Lith-X") that basically smother the fire with powdered graphite.

Ansul Red Line 30 lb. Lith-X Dry Chemical Cartridge Fire Extinguisher - Monroe Extinguisher

So, if a bad Li battery ignites while being charged on a dive boat, your only realistic hope is to toss them overboard, pronto (unless you keep a very special extinguisher on hand, AND notice the fire before it spreads to all the other cells being charged nearby.)

We all want smaller, lighter batteries with longer run-times for our torches, phones, and computers, but There Aint No Such Thing as a Free Lunch (TANSTAAFL). You pack all that energy into a small package, and if there's a failure, all the energy can be released in an incredibly short amount of time. And you wonder why TSA is concerned about how and where you pack your Li-batteries when flying?

In the airline context the procedure is to extinguish or cool the battery with water and deposit into a firesock bag. They are then normally left in the bag, submerged in water ( an emptied toilet waste bin can be used).

 

[Wookie]

Is there an exit from the main living cabin out to the front of the boat? Because, when there is a fire in the living cabin and you can escape from the bunks, how will you escape the cabin? The walkway to freedom seems very long...

There must be because it’s the rule. I’m told (heresay) that the back cabin doors were usually left open.

 

[Wookie]

In the airline context the procedure is to extinguish or cool the battery with water and deposit into a firesock bag. They are then normally left in the bag, submerged in water ( an emptied toilet waste bin can be used).

In liveaboard dive boat captain context, you throw the whole mess overboard.....

 

[rjack321]

Locked hatch? No one made it out?
Hmmm.
As a veteran firefighter and commercial diver and the fact most of U.S. simply do not know about this grand jury, I'd have a very open mind about this. Something stinks. I'm sorry I offended so many of you, but you can not argue against facts. If you disagree please state specifically which exhibits of the 57 do you disagree with? LCfor911.org

Welcome to scubaboard.

There was no locked hatch

 

[xmass-Eve]

Locked hatch? No one made it out?
Hmmm.
As a veteran firefighter and commercial diver and the fact most of U.S. simply do not know about this grand jury, I'd have a very open mind about this. Something stinks. I'm sorry I offended so many of you, but you can not argue against facts. If you disagree please state specifically which exhibits of the 57 do you disagree with? LCfor911.org

Maybe you should read the whole thread before making a comment like this. And even worse... it's your first comment ever!

 

[dmaziuk]

I was thinking that the computer room/data centers of places I have worked had Halon fire suppression systems. What is the difference here? People in a computer room are presumed to be awake and can get out quickly?

Server rooms aren't supposed to have people sleeping inside, correct. The ones equipped with dry suppression systems often have a couple of isolating gas masks (or whatever they're called in English) in very visible and highly accessible locations.

In a conversation I happened to have this morning I was told that codes covering our server room are: "there must be a wet system to protect the building". I.e. they are not there to protect the multi-kilobucks' worth of computers, and similarly the sprinklers in your condo may not be there to protect the inhabitants.

(And for a dry system, there must be a room, somewhere on the premises, full of gas tanks that get regularly inspected, recharged, and all that.)

PS and don't call it Halon: it's an improved formula that isn't quite so bad on the ozone layer, with a different name.

 

[markmud]

I wouldn’t expect a lazarette fire to spread like this one did. YMMV. With an open back deck, it would have to get through the engineroom which is reported to have had a CO2 system in it...

Hi Wookie,
I am not an advocate for a dryer vent fire. Their was a question regarding whether or not the vessel had a below deck clothes dryer. When I was on Conception it did. The Vision has one right at the transom in the lazerette. As I recall the Conception did have a CO2 system in the engine room.

DD speculated that criminal negligence charges may be filed. I "feel" that may be the case as I don't see any scenario whereby Conception becomes an instantaneous conflagration--stem to stern, keel to masthead. A licensed captain or mate performing their duties diligently should have had enough time to get people rolling out of their racks.

YMMV!

M
PS: That hatch was tested by me. I guarantee you that I could navigate that egress hatch quite quickly. Also, there has to be an egress path forward in the shower compartment. Passengers had that route available even though they would have to briefly transit a small landing that was exposed to the galley and salon area.

I slept with a flashlight, shoes, a towel to douse with water, and water.

 

[edm81363]

Hi -

I live and work on Research and Exploration Vessels for 6 months a year, and have done this for the last 10 years. @Wookie has made some great points that reflect actual vessel operational knowledge.

In the USCG STCW Firefighting training, one learns how exceptionally fast fire can spread on a vessel. There doesn't need to be exploding tanks, flaming batteries or magic pixie dust for that happen. Boat fires are a huge threat for this very reason.

And the smoke from a fire can fill a compartment in a VERY short period of time. I've been in full bunker gear with a super hot rollover 1m or so above me and it is quite uncomfortable. Without the gear, I would retreat immediately.

Lacking similar experience, it is a fools errand to determine on how one might react in an actual fire.

Granted, I only work on SOLAS vessels, but paying attention to the safety features of a vessel, the muster point, ships signals, firefighting apparatus and lifesaving appliances is an action that could save your life.

With regards to this specific incident, it is a terrible tragedy for all involved, including the surviving crew and vessel operator. Time will hopefully provide some answers.

 

[KevinNM]

Locked hatch? No one made it out?
Hmmm.
As a veteran firefighter and commercial diver and the fact most of U.S. simply do not know about this grand jury, I'd have a very open mind about this. Something stinks. I'm sorry I offended so many of you, but you can not argue against facts. If you disagree please state specifically which exhibits of the 57 do you disagree with? LCfor911.org

It's pretty much sounding like the entire salon/galley had reached flashover before it was detected. No idea how or why. Nobody is running through a 25 MW/sec fire in their underwear.

 

[Wookie]

Hi Wookie,
I am not an advocate for a dryer vent fire. Their was a question regarding whether or not the vessel had a below deck clothes dryer. When I was on Conception it did. The Vision has one right at the transom in the lazerette. As I recall the Conception did have a CO2 system in the engine room.

DD speculated that criminal negligence charges may be filed. I "feel" that may be the case as I don't see any scenario whereby Conception becomes an instantaneous conflagration--stem to stern, keel to masthead. A licensed captain or mate performing their duties diligently should have had enough time to get people rolling out of their racks.

YMMV!

M
PS: That hatch was tested by me. I guarantee you that I could navigate that egress hatch quite quickly. Also, there has to be an egress path forward in the shower compartment. Passengers had that route available even thought they would have to briefly transit a small landing that was exposed to the galley and salon area.

I slept with a flashlight, shoes, a towel to douse with water, and water.

But you are a Mariner. If you’re not, you sure know a lot about being one, or you slept at a holiday inn last night.