Finally got the back kick today; thanks for all the great tips.

[divad]

BTW, if you have a link to those helpful tips - I'd appreciate it. Will take a spin on this forum and see what I find.

I think I just typed in "back kick" in "search this forum" in the DIR forum. Now that I am an expert and know everything, try it without scuba gear and no fins. After you get it with no fins which I found easiest, quickly put on your fins and try it really slowly and with small strokes. I found it really helpful to hold on to something so I could feel the resistance which kind of told me where my feet were and how they were moving. That may be considered a crutch here, I don't know. I was starting to get it on scuba, but I couldn't put a reliable set of kicks together. Oh yeah, clasp your hands in front of you with your head up. I think it's easier if you wear nothing buoyant (sp). Actually, try it on the floor or a bed first. Hope this helps.

 

[lamont]

I found it worked to break down the movement into its component parts and to work on back kicking with each leg individually. Then if you do that and add a forwards frog kick with the other leg you've got a working helicopter turn. Then when you put both legs in reverse, you get a backkick. After awhile you learn what it feels like to get traction backwards with your fins and by working to maximize that, you get a better back kick.

 

[divad]

I found it worked to break down the movement into its component parts and to work on back kicking with each leg individually. Then if you do that and add a forwards frog kick with the other leg you've got a working helicopter turn. Then when you put both legs in reverse, you get a backkick. After awhile you learn what it feels like to get traction backwards with your fins and by working to maximize that, you get a better back kick.

That's what I was thinking. When I first tried a helicorter turn, after reading about it five years ago, it worked. In my last three dives in Lake Jocassee, I noticed that I was able to turn right using only the right fin and left using only the left fin, ie two halves of a back kick, but I wasn't able to combine the two into a reliable back kick.
It was a glitch of the mind which may be better suited to the soon-to-be-created "Am I Too Flakey to Dive?" forum.

 

[lamont]

That's what I was thinking. When I first tried a helicorter turn, after reading about it five years ago, it worked. In my last three dives in Lake Jocassee, I noticed that I was able to turn right using only the right fin and left using only the left fin, ie two halves of a back kick, but I wasn't able to combine the two into a reliable back kick.
It was a glitch of the mind which may be better suited to the soon-to-be-created "Am I Too Flakey to Dive?" forum.

yeah, once you get that far, it may be useful to get an U/W camera that does video to see what is going on and try to correct it.

one thing is that if your fin tips are up, you'll tend to go head-down and pull yourself up to the surface.

another problem is that you kick yourself forwards on the extension of your legs.

another problem is that for some reason you can get traction with one kick, but when you try two of them you're not turning both ankles enough.

also, often the back kick part of the helicopter turn isn't as good as you think it is, until you look at it on video.

 

[divad]

yeah, once you get that far, it may be useful to get an U/W camera that does video to see what is going on and try to correct it.

one thing is that if your fin tips are up, you'll tend to go head-down and pull yourself up to the surface.

another problem is that you kick yourself forwards on the extension of your legs.

another problem is that for some reason you can get traction with one kick, but when you try two of them you're not turning both ankles enough.

also, often the back kick part of the helicopter turn isn't as good as you think it is, until you look at it on video.

Thanks. When I THINK I've got it together, I'll go see Bob Sherwood at Dutch Springs if I can.

Am I "supposed" to get propulsion from the bottom of the fin at the very end of the back kick, or is it my imagination and I'm just pulling my feet to far back?

 

[lamont]

Thanks. When I THINK I've got it together, I'll go see Bob Sherwood at Dutch Springs if I can.

Am I "supposed" to get propulsion from the bottom of the fin at the very end of the back kick, or is it my imagination and I'm just pulling my feet to far back?

I have absolutely no idea. I'm trying to create a tactile picture of what you're talking about and I've never run across that thought/feeling...

 

[divad]

I have absolutely no idea. I'm trying to create a tactile picture of what you're talking about and I've never run across that thought/feeling...

YouTube - Back Kick


It appears that she's getting a little propulsion from the bottom of the fin at the very end of the kick.

 

[lamont]

YouTube - Back Kick


It appears that she's getting a little propulsion from the bottom of the fin at the very end of the kick.

i'm still not sure i'm seeing that. it looks kind of like she could get a little more 'bite' on the 'power' stroke by twisting her ankles a little more, though, but that might be camera angle.

 

[divad]

i'm still not sure i'm seeing that. it looks kind of like she could get a little more 'bite' on the 'power' stroke by twisting her ankles a little more, though, but that might be camera angle.

OK, I'll leave it alone. I was able to swim almost half the length of the pool under water on my second trip to the pool yesterday. I was able to "aim" up or down and straighten myself out laterally. Except for the ****ed up trim, it felt pretty good until what seemed like ten thousand people jumped into the lane. Thanks for your help.

 

[TSandM]

I see what you are talking about in Clare's video, but I don't think it's actually happening. For me, the back kick feels like a very circular motion of "scooping" water with the TOP of the fin.