filthy cruise ship thread (resurrected)

[archman]

By accident I had the previous thread on cruise ship pollution deleted. So anyone thinking it was another moderator conspiracy will have to have their hopes dashed. Sorry.

But since this is such an important topic to divers and this forum in particular, I deemed it necessary to bring it back... even BETTER THAN BEFORE!!

Cruise ships (or more accurately, too MANY cruise ships) are one of the worst threats to Caribbean reefs. They pollute mind-boggling amounts of all sorts of wastes, bang into coral, facilitate mangrove and shoreline destruction via terminal construction, and create dangerous monotype economies to cash-starved islands. A large amount of public outcry has litigated many cruise ship companies into better managing themselves, but the main problem... OVERUSE OF NATURAL RESOURCES is getting worse, not better.

Not liking to drone, here are informative links you can read up on yourself. Try not to judge a topic until you're reasonably versed in it, that's my motto.

If you like to be swamped with information, visit Oceana's site. These folks don't mess around.
http://www.stopcruisepollution.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=factsheet_detail&factsheetID=993

They have a well written report, "Needless Cruise Pollution" that can be accessed independently. It's good readin'.
http://northamerica.oceana.org/uploads/cruise_report_final.pdf

The BlueWater Network likes to tally up enviromental litigation against cruise ship lines. There's FAR TOO MUCH.
http://bluewaternetwork.org/campaign_ss_cruises.shtml

An older but exceptionally well balanced article details problems directly associated with the Caribbean.
http://www.planeta.com/planeta/96/0896cruise.html

For you Hawaiian folks, here's what's going on in your neck of the woods.
http://www.kahea.org/ocean/

And in Alaska, which is one of the few places where environmental regulation is starting to have a measurable effect (although it's still got problems).
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/121102/sta_cruiseships.shtml

And I can't leave out the Canadians; dang this report takes no prisoners!
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/ns/cruising.pdf

Here's an abridged version, if you can't take the pain.
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/ns/cruisingpr.html

And if all you desire is something quick and dirty to get you up to speed, try both of these links.
http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/journalism/outlook/cruise.html

http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0322-01.htm

Like in the previously deleted thread, feel free to contribute your thoughts and observations from cruise ship destinations you've been to. These things need to be reigned in quick, before they (in order of occurrence):
1. Oversaturate an Area
2. Destroy said Area
3. Collapse local tourism-dependent economy
4. Prevent future restoration of Area

 

[6Gill]

By accident I had the previous thread on cruise ship pollution deleted. So anyone thinking it was another moderator conspiracy will have to have their hopes dashed. Sorry.

But since this is such an important topic to divers and this forum in particular, I deemed it necessary to bring it back... even BETTER THAN BEFORE!!

Cruise ships (or more accurately, too MANY cruise ships) are one of the worst threats to Caribbean reefs. They pollute mind-boggling amounts of all sorts of wastes, bang into coral, facilitate mangrove and shoreline destruction via terminal construction, and create dangerous monotype economies to cash-starved islands. A large amount of public outcry has litigated many cruise ship companies into better managing themselves, but the main problem... OVERUSE OF NATURAL RESOURCES is getting worse, not better.

Not liking to drone, here are informative links you can read up on yourself. Try not to judge a topic until you're reasonably versed in it, that's my motto.

If you like to be swamped with information, visit Oceana's site. These folks don't mess around.
http://www.stopcruisepollution.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=factsheet_detail&factsheetID=993

They have a well written report, "Needless Cruise Pollution" that can be accessed independently. It's good readin'.
http://northamerica.oceana.org/uploads/cruise_report_final.pdf

The BlueWater Network likes to tally up enviromental litigation against cruise ship lines. There's FAR TOO MUCH.
http://bluewaternetwork.org/campaign_ss_cruises.shtml

An older but exceptionally well balanced article details problems directly associated with the Caribbean.
http://www.planeta.com/planeta/96/0896cruise.html

For you Hawaiian folks, here's what's going on in your neck of the woods.
http://www.kahea.org/ocean/

And in Alaska, which is one of the few places where environmental regulation is starting to have a measurable effect (although it's still got problems).
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/121102/sta_cruiseships.shtml

And I can't leave out the Canadians; dang this report takes no prisoners!
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/ns/cruising.pdf

Here's an abridged version, if you can't take the pain.
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/ns/cruisingpr.html

And if all you desire is something quick and dirty to get you up to speed, try both of these links.
http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/journalism/outlook/cruise.html

http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/0322-01.htm

Like in the previously deleted thread, feel free to contribute your thoughts and observations from cruise ship destinations you've been to. These things need to be reigned in quick, before they (in order of occurrence):
1. Oversaturate an Area
2. Destroy said Area
3. Collapse local tourism-dependent economy
4. Prevent future restoration of Area

This message was composed in anwser to some of your and others comments that were made in the one you deleted.

Well, I'm not much of a "tree hugger" or PETA supporter, as apparently you seem to be. (Your previous address label.) I look at Green Peace and PETA as a sort of a terrorist organisation. On the other hand, I do like to support reasonable efforts, to preserve the environment, etc. I have to agree with some anothers comments here ( Again previous messages) that you might just get what you wish for and discover that your job, life style to be severely effected by the restrictions that these types of organizations would like to force on us. The Cruise ship industry creates many jobs both in crew, supprting services and the tourist industry in many Countries. I know in the Seattle area, which you mention and I live in,has created many needed jobs in this area, that were not there prior to Cruise ships operating out of Seattle. As for polluting Puget Sound, the State and Seattle Governments are working with the Cruise lines operating out of the Port of Seattle on any such problems. There are laws in effect both Federal (Inforced by the USCG) and local authorities against dumping waste into the Sound. I do not think this dumping you mention is taking place! If caught they will be charged and subject to prosecution and heavily fined. The reason that I mentioned Canada is that the Cities of Vancover BC and Victoria BC both dump all their entire raw sewerage into the local waters. (As well as other local cities in BC) ( I didn't agree with your casual assesment of this ugly abuse.) Some of the best diving in the PNW area surrounds these Cities, thus my concern. Seattle and the entire State of Washington does not dump raw sewerage into Puget Sound.

So, I guess that I will continue to take a Cruise at least once a year and support the Cruise ship industry. I will, however; continue to monitor and elect those people who support reasonable environmental issues and create laws and regulations to prevent destruction of the environment.

I took my military SCUBA course (Combat Diver) in Key West and enjoyed that area's diving. I haven't been diving there recently, however; in checking the usual magazines (Rodales, etc.) The area is still listed as a great area to vist and dive. :hai:

 

[archman]

Ah... Puget Sound, only clean if you don't know what to look for. We have the same problem with Texas beaches... nobody knows what a pristine ecosystem actually looks like. I'll just link a couple recent articles. There are lots more throughout the years.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2001845353_ship28m0.html

http://www.thesunlink.com/redesign/2004-01-28/local/387722.shtml

And then there's Key West, which I know pretty well, as well as its people. Anyone disputing it's downspiral in water quality overdevelopment, and local frustration with excess tourists isn't in touch with reality.

In its March issue, National Geographic Traveler magazine put Key West in its "Getting Ugly" category, ranking it third from last among 115 international travel destinations for what it called crowding, poor planning and greed.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-03-12-key-west_x.htm

As for the "economic benefit" to the community, read pp. 6-11 on this Canadian report. It's up to date and quite accurate. Cruise ships are not really considered in the best economic interest for an area except in the short term... unless they're tightly managed. Sustainability is the issue.
http://www.policyalternatives.ca/ns/cruising.pdf

Hmm... I have never been referred to as a "tree hugger" or PETA supporter before. As an ecologist I'm considered highly conservative by my peers. I hesitate to see how you would view the majority of marine scientists.. which would explain your reluctance to believe that the environment is in such poor shape.

 

[Boogie711]

If you are going to dispute an ecological issue, I would prefer that you back up your claims with scientific or at least more objective facts.

Weren't you saying cruise ships should be painted brown until they meet municipal water standards?

Fact - Hundreds of communities - some as large as Halifax or Vancouver, dump their raw sewage straight into the ocean.

Fact - the amount of waste dumped into the ocean from municipalities exceeds the amount of waste from cruise ships, by orders of magnitude.

Now I ask you - what's the greater environmental issue?

 

[archman]

Yeah Boogie, I deleted that statement. It was rude of me.
Now on to the junk science debunking!

Don't confuse cruise ship embarkation ports like Halifax or Vancouver with cruise ship disembarkment destinations. It is in fact a common mistake.

Embarkation ports DO have water quality issues as you have rightly said, and there ARE primarily municipal in origin. Most of these cities do have considerable regulation in place, even if it isn't enforced. But that's a different issue.

Now recall that cruise ships do not linger at large cities typically, but visit small exotic islands or coastal villages. The ships now are the dominant contributor to poor water quality, among other detriments.

Degrading water quality bears direct relation to human population pressure. So yeah, Houston Texas will have a bigger water quality problem than Bermuda. But nobody really dives in Houston, nor is it touted as a scenic destination.

And if you pay attention to politics and environmental law, you'll note that large, wide-sweeping regulations are very rarely passed in legislatures. You have to start small and work your way up from there. Or get nothing passed. In this realistic context, it is far more prudent for marine stewards to lobby against cruise ships, if for the simple reason that it WORKS.

As a Caribbean scuba diver, the last thing I want to see is dead reefs. But that's what you get if tourism is not properly managed (i.e. Jamaica). And cruise ships tend to be least managed and most damaging aspect of this industry. Not a good combination.

 

[Boogie711]

Houston Texas will have a bigger water quality problem than Bermuda. But nobody really dives in Houston, nor is it touted as a scenic destination.

So are the fish and ecosystem off of Houston, Vancouver, Halifax or anywhere else any less important? I'm trying to understand what you're attempting to claim, but I'm not buying it.

With respect, I think you're basically out to just crap all over the cruise ship industry. I've never taken a cruise in my life, and I don't really intend on it, but I think your logic is flawed, personally.

 

[archman]

The point is at the top of the thread. I'll bold it next time.

Cruise ships (or more accurately, too MANY cruise ships) are one of the worst threats to Caribbean reefs

I thought I had enough informative links to back that up. I can find some more, I suppose, or interview some sanctuary staff I know, use my professional counsel as a marine ecologist, cite passages from various peer-reviewed articles, government reports, etc.. Links are easier, however.

And as for this statement:

With respect, I think you're basically out to just crap all over the cruise ship industry.

You're dead on, although using "crap" might be a poor choice of words. I'm hoping to educate willing divers on what really does "crap all over" the Caribbean. If someone can refute this, I would welcome it. It would be inspirational. I don't intend to sound insanely obsessive against cruise ships, I suppose it looks that way when one heavily paints a previously positive/neutral source in a negative light. It's like kicking a dog.

 

[Boogie711]

There is obviously a lot of money to be made by attacking the cruise industry. After all, Activist groups can send out flyers and part the gullible from their money easily enough - show pictures of largesse, opulent cruiseliners, or coming up with schemes like painting the hulls brown.

After all, nothing is easier than attacking the rich, corporate types who frequent these "floating ships of death" is there?

It's sad, really, because for whatever reason, people like you tend to believe that a Carribean reef is somehow worth more than a Haligonian reef. Or a Vancouver reef, or a reef located in any one of the major urban centres.
Obviously, there's good money to be made, because activist groups are ignoring the larger problems - unabated waste water treatment - and focusing on the much smaller culprit.

Archman - please don't tell me that you think that just because the water may be clearer or warmer that somehow the reef is more precious or fragile. That's just naive at best. If you're going to focus on cleaning up the oceans, go after the big offenders, not just the easy targets.

 

[archman]

I'll post it again!

Cruise ships (or more accurately, too MANY cruise ships) are one of the worst threats to Caribbean reefs

This thread isn't about other habitats AT ALL!! By training I'm a soft sediment ecologist... that's just about the most ignored and trashed marine habitat on the planet. But it doesn't have much to do with Caribbean reefs, scuba divers, or this thread.

This is ALL this thread is about.
A. Cruise ships pollute. A lot.
B. There are a lot of cruise ships in the Caribbean.
C. Caribbean reefs suffer due to A & B.
D. There is little sustainable management of cruise ships in the Caribbean, or most other cruise destinations.

I would be more than happy (in fact quite pleased) if a thread on Vancouver reefs, Puget sound, or even Galveston Bay started up. I would make comments appropriate to those specific habitats, and I would expect others to as well.

 

[Boogie711]

Archman, with respect, I haven't missed your point - you've missed my point. I understand that cruise ships release their human waste into the environment. Sure. My point is simply this - there is all sorts of scrutiny on the cruise industry. People get all worked up over their reefs, because activist groups such as the ones you've linked to get people all worked up about it.

Isn't it a shame that activists get everyone worked up about cruise ships? I mean, sure, they're a problem, but isn't going after the cruise ship industry akin to arresting someone for jaywalking just as a robbery is happening across the street?

But no, it's far easier to arrest jaywalkers (read - attack the rich and corporate culture) than it is to go after the bigger offenders. It's awfully hard to fundraise complaining about the sewage in the midst of a downtown urban harbor - people EXPECT it to be dirty. But no - why don't we go after Carribean polluters? Then those same people who pollute every day but then go south on vacation will give us their money!!!!

It's all one ocean, dude.