Easy deflating BC?

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jd950

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I was working on bouyancy last night in the pool. My success was hindered somewhat because my BC was difficult to deflate. I understand about positioning the dump valve(s), holding the deflator up above the BC, use of the dump valve, etc., but I found it annoying to have to keep gyrating around to dump air, and I often could not fully deflate without way too much effort. Also, after getting out of the water I found the BC had taken on a surprising amount of water which I assume didn't help much. On a similar note, are some BCs more or less easy to inflate in small increments? I have searched and not found anything on this and not too much on the deflation. Maybe this is just a dumb question, but I would think there could be some difference in valve materials and construction, allowing greater precision with small bursts of air.

When I go to buy a BC I would like to look for one that is relatively easy to deflate (or perhaps I should say easy to adjust air volume in both directions).

I have seen reviews that talk about the flow rate and how BCs compare on ascent control, but I don't see much comment on that here.. Is it as simple as looking at those reviews or is this just a non-issue for most folks?

Thanks.
 
For me, it really is a non-issue. The only reason I can think that you'd really "need" the fastest dumping is if your inflator was jammed open, but it's trivial to just pop it off. (You may want a "hose hat" ($2.50 each) if you don't have one -- it'll make popping a standard inflator hose off much easier.)

When you're a decently skilled diver (as in, you've found neutral buoyancy and horizontal trim, which is *required* to be neutral and swimming), you'll find that it's basically trivial to stay inside the buoyancy curve. It takes most people a bit of practice, but it's not hard (just sometimes a bit tedious).

If you're not horizontal yet, work your trim out first. I know in my previous jacket BC, it was *easy* to dump everything if I was horizontal, but if I was vertical, there were always rogue air pockets. (I can't say for certain about my current BC, as I don't dive it upright. :D)


(Frankly, by the way, I'd propose that the reason ScubaBoard doesn't have much comparing BCs on ascent control is that it's like comparing the windshield wiper switches on cars. You can certainly measure the torque required or the radial travel per switch setting, but in real life, it's unlikely the differences will matter. Things like the design of the wipers -- i.e. the type of BC -- may be relevant and discussed at length, but other factors are often reported on but not really relevant to actual diving.)
 
Well, maybe it was a dumb question. I do have trouble remaining horizonal when not swimming, as my legs start sinking unless I arch my back quite a bit. The problem was less remaining at a certain depth than the problem of ascending a bit while swimming and trying to slow or stop my ascent before I overshoot. I have to deflate the BC to do so. I realize proper breathing and weighting are a part of this, perhaps the biggest part, but I find it frustrating to first try lifting the deflator hose up to let air out and then roll to one side to try and use the dump valve to get air out.

I guess a lot of you simply use the BC as a surface flotation device and a holder for weights, and do not inflate or deflate as a means of adjusting buoyancy. I'm just not there yet and may never be. I thought if some particular BC would make this process easier it would be nice to know when I go to buy one.

Apparently the problem is my skill and technique, and not an equipment issue, although I have to say that holding hoses over your head and rolling to put dump valves in the right spot to release air does not seem very sophisticated for devices that are otherwise basically inflatable bags costing several hundred dollars.
 
JD - don't get discouraged, practice.

If you go up when you swim, and by the way you say your feet sink when you stop -- you need to adjust the weighting trim.

To see if it is easily fixable, raise your tank about 2 inches i.e. put the tank band 2 inches lower on the tank. Yes, the valve/reg may get bumped by your head, but try it temporarily anyway. If your feet don't sink then, and you can swim without going up, then you needed to shift weight towards your head.

If you can't keep the tank has high as you put it, lower it back down and get an ankle weight. Put it around the top of the tank. But try moving the tank first so you don't waste your money.

Sounds like you have a trim problem more than anything else.

Don't forget it may change when you use different thermal protection too.

Safe diving.
 
jd950:
Well, maybe it was a dumb question. I do have trouble remaining horizonal when not swimming, as my legs start sinking unless I arch my back quite a bit. The problem was less remaining at a certain depth than the problem of ascending a bit while swimming and trying to slow or stop my ascent before I overshoot. I have to deflate the BC to do so. I realize proper breathing and weighting are a part of this, perhaps the biggest part, but I find it frustrating to first try lifting the deflater hose up to let air out and then roll to one side to try and use the dump valve to get air out.
Hi JD950,

If you are over weighted then you are carrying a bigger bubble in your BC. This greater air volume will make for a more volatile buoyancy situation as you move up and down in the water column. A big bubble will force you to ride your BC valves and won't be much fun. Remember to set your weight so that you bob at eye level at the end of your dive with an empty BC, an average breath, your feet still (crossed) and about 500 PSI in your cylinder. A deep breath should get your mask out of the water and a deep exhale should sink your mask. Do all of this while breathing from your regulator. The end of the dive is the defining moment for your weight requirement and you want just enough to let you stay down in the shallows with a light cylinder.

Remaining horizontal as you swim is usually addressed by where you place your weights and this includes how high you wear your cylinder on your back. You say that your legs sink. I'm going to ask you to think instead that your chest is floating, Picture yourself as a see saw. If your BC has trim pockets move 4-6 pounds from your waist to your back, You can also wear the cylinder higher if that works. Another option is to get an extra cam band and strap some weight to the cylinder towards the top but down near your back so you don't become tippy.

It sounds like you need to work on weight and trim first. With that under control you will begin to be at ease. You will be able to relax your breathing and even begin to modify it a bit to help manage buoyancy but you need to clear up these issues in order.

As for venting the BC I think that will all fall into place as you turn down the noise. Some BCs do have a trick where you need to position your self just right to empty them 100% Again with weight and trim in order you will start to have true 3 dimensional freedom and positional control will be trivial.
jd950:
I guess a lot of you simply use the BC as a surface flotation device and a holder for weights, and do not inflate or deflate as a means of adjusting buoyancy. I'm just not there yet and may never be. I thought if some particular BC would make this process easier it would be nice to know when I go to buy one.
Most divers especially with a significant wetsuit must use their BC during the dive. This is the biggest reason for the Buoyancy Compensator. As the name implies it lets us compensate for changes in buoyancy. With a significant wetsuit the divers becomes much more negative as he or she dives deeper and the BC allows the diver to establish neutral buoyancy.

The other variable is the buoyancy of your cylinder. Every breath you take makes the cylinder lighter. Typically this amounts to about 5 pounds over a dive. This is 5 pounds of extra weight that you need to carry so that you will not be too light at the end of the dive.

It may help to visualize that a pound is negated by about a 1 pint volume of air. Remember that the volume (buoyancy) of that air will double or halve every 33 feet as you go up and down. If you are wearing 5 pounds of extra weight (don't confuse this with the 5 that offsets air use) and are at 33 feet and rise 16 feet (1/2 ATM) that air will expand by 50% and you will be 2.5 pounds lighter. At the same time your wetsuit is expanding at a fast rate and adding to your positive condition. My point is that there is a real relationship between the amount of air in your BC, the depth you are at and how much your buoyancy will fluctuate with depth changes.

With practice and correct weighting you will be much less reliant on the BC and depending on your exposure protection will be able to wander up and down in the water column to some extent with little more than modified lung volume.

In all likelihood you just need practice. The first step is recognizing the need. If you dive with a spirit of continuous improvement you will get there. Someone here on the board said that you need to think "in trim". Especially initially you need to look at yourself critically and slowly make adjustments.

jd950:
Apparently the problem is my skill and technique, and not an equipment issue, although I have to say that holding hoses over your head and rolling to put dump valves in the right spot to release air does not seem very sophisticated for devices that are otherwise basically inflatable bags costing several hundred dollars.

That lack of sophistication equates to simple reliability in my book. There are some much more gadget oriented BCs emerging but I don't see the point.

In your other post you mention having lots of water in your BC. That is not uncommon especially if you are riding the valves. As you evolve you will use them less and not keep them open needlessly. You will see that water volume drop with experience. I have observed some definite plateaus where my water volume dropped noticeably and continues at a reduced level.

BC Valves can be a bit like playing then piano. There is a feel to them. For certain critical moments they are made to vent a lot of air. For subtle control try feathering them quickly to release just a burp. Remember that a change in buoyancy will take several seconds to be reflected in your vertical motion.

Take your time and work through the details. It will be worthwhile.

Pete
 
My advice about BC's.

1. Buy your own. This way you can set it up the same way every dive and make minor changes in trim with the tank position and weighting.

2. Buy one where you can arrange weights many ways. Some have pockets in the back(a Dacor I used to own), pockets near the shoulder blades (my old Black Diamond) and some have weight pockets on the tank (my almost unused Zeagle Scout). Only the Black Diamond had integrated front weight pockets. That is another consideration.

3. Buy only the lift you need. The Black Diamond, while a nice BC, was way too much for what I used it for. I think it had 44 lbs of lift. The Scout was much better at 34. Now I use a 30 lb. I could get by with an 18 lb but I would rather have the extra lift than the minimal decrease in size. The more excess lift you have, the more places for air to get trapped. If you have the minimum lift plus allowance, it is much easier to deflate.

Dont worry about the water in your BC. It only affects your drag. It gets in there because you kept on pushing the deflate button when there was no more air to release. Or the air was in another part of the BC.

The inflator is a non issue. Any standard inflator on known brand BC's will function well. Some may fill your BC faster like the integrated AIR 2, but a couple of dives and you dont even notice it anymore.

Dont give up on the buoyancy and trim. Even very experienced divers have off days now and then. You cannot say that you need only this much air in your BC. It will even depend on what you had for breakfast or lunch. (Think burritos) haha
 
jd950:
Well, maybe it was a dumb question.
It certainly wasn't a dumb question, especially since it shows that you're actively thinking about things. If the answer turns out to seem readily apparent to some more experienced people, it just means that it should be easy to answer. (Hehe, a dumb question would be "Can I make a second 100' dive on this completely empty tank or do I need to get it filled first?")


I had to take a couple two-pound weights and put them on a spare cam band (picked up from the dive shop) right at the shoulder of my tank. Once I did that, I was able to relax with horizontal trim and peg my buoyancy. When you're trimmed horizontally, you're not swimming up an incline, so you can truly be neutral, and when you're neutral, it's *much* easier to stay neutral throughout the dive.

You'll get the hang of it, certainly, and once you've worked your weighting through to proper trim and buoyancy, you should find everything from there on to be much easier. I know I did, as did several of my local buddies.

(Incidentally, if you have a friend with a pool, use it for this. It's actually *harder* to get your buoyancy perfected in shallow water, and your air will last a long time. Plus, it's easy to add or remove weight while you're working things out. Once you've got it spot on in the shallows of a pool, you're set for life... or at least until you do the next major gear change. :D)
 

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