DSS (Deep Sea Supply)---Warning

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cool_hardware52

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DSS wings are sewn closed--no zipper. They aren't intended to be user-repairable. That's what we're talking about here.

Some are (Torus) some are not (LCD) As a practical matter nearly all wings, regardless of being zippered or sewn shut end up being returned for repair. The vast majority of divers lack the tools and specific knowledge of how a wing is assembled to be able to execute a repair, and most dive shops simply don't want to bother, or lack the tools and skills.

I used to sell bladders, and pretty soon stopped because far to many ended up botched, damaged, and the wing came back anyway. No manufacturer has an obligation to provide unlimited tech support to those attempting DIY repairs, and no manufacturer needs the headaches associated with selling a low margin repair part only to have it generate additional warranty claims.

Sorry if that offends some here who seem to believe there should be a constitutionally protected right to parts forever to anyone that demands them. Nearly every manufacturer is trying to maximize value for the customer, and losing money and devoting expensive staff time to a tiny fraction of DIY simply drives up the cost to the rest of the customer base.

Put another way, how can I know if Random Diver X is equipped and qualified to work on his own gear, or is he / she likely to start a complaint thread when they fail?

Tobin
 

eelnoraa

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So Tobin, why NOT zipper? It seems buyers like that idea in case they want to do repair. If not, it will save you time for repairing. What is the the down side? a zipper can't cost that much??
 

Altamira

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So Tobin, why NOT zipper? It seems buyers like that idea in case they want to do repair. If not, it will save you time for repairing. What is the the down side? a zipper can't cost that much??

Yes, exactly! When I was looking for a replacement bcd for my Sherwood Avid a couple of years ago, I considered the DSS bp/w until I found out it could not be repaired, even temporarily, in the field. Ultimately, because of other considerations, I bought a Zeagle Covert instead of a bp/w because it best suited my diving needs, and if necessary, I could patch a small leak eliminating the PITA of having to drag around a bcd that would not hold air for the remainder of my trip.
 

cool_hardware52

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So Tobin, why NOT zipper? It seems buyers like that idea in case they want to do repair. If not, it will save you time for repairing. What is the the down side? a zipper can't cost that much??
Do a search. I've answered this dozens and dozens of times.

I know it's a difficult concept for some, but at the risk of repetition

*I'M MOVING*

*~200,000 lbs of Equipment*

*and my home*

*~450 Miles*​

There are just a few things higher on my list than again having to satisfy the curiosity the small and ever shrinking audience that is Scubaboard.

BTW, can you list for all the vest type BC's *WIth* zippers? OMG how does one field repair these?????

The reality is the typical damage that is practical to repair in the field (pin hole, small slice) is of little consequence, and large holes are often not good candidates for field repairs. (Que the post by the guy who made an entire new bladder in the middle of the ocean with 1/2 of a 3 ounce tube of aquaseal....)

I've seen my share of wings. It's not at all uncommon for a 2-3-4 year old wing to be returned and the complaint is bubbling at the vent. When we tear it down it's literally full of holes, most small, but 10-20 pinches is not uncommon. The diver was beating the hell out of their wing, but never even knew they had the small holes......

But when they finally manage to put a 2-3 inch slice in the bladder they call me. (er ah gee I have no idea how that happened I *always* treat my gear like a Fabergé egg, except of course when I hand over all my gear to the dive op staff to assemble and care for.....)

I would never as a manufacturer be comfortable with recommending a field repair on a large slice.

Most divers do not carry a replacement bladder, or the wrenches (or the skills) to replace a bladder. (The hyper prepared just have a spare wing, cuzz they know repairs may not be possible)

That pretty much relegates field repairs to small holes that probably won't have much impact on the actual use, remember the pressure differential between the inside of the bladder and the surrounding water at depth is essentially zero. "0" psi across any orifice just doesn't generate much flow.......

Tobin
 

ams511

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Er, ah, gotta love your step by step repair guide for a product you don't own and know nothing about.

I think I added the disclaimer that I never saw the wing.

Suffice to say it requires a very high level of experience and skill to install and sew shut a Torus Wing. We even occasionally damage a bladder doing it. One reason we *always* tested every repair prior to shipping it out.......

I never said it didn't require skill to do it correctly. You did not test the LCD 30 wing you sent me.

Anyone with the most basic understanding of sewing would recognize how difficult it is to install a bladder in a Torus.

Short course, do try to pay attention:

Step one, remove all the molded rubber elements in the center panel of the wing.

Step two, remove the fittings

Step three, carefully seam rip the stitch path in the center panel

Step four, remove the bladder

Step five insert new bladder

Step six align the front panel with the back panel using a special fixture that indexes on the camstrap opening and on the round penetrations at 12 inch centers. (no not 11" centers)

Step seven, carefully sew the center panel, keeping in mind that the bladder is LARGER than the shell and wants to creep into the seam. You have to be able to hold the bladder back out of the sewn area as you do it., but you can't actually touch the bladder. Here again a special set of fixtures and techniques are required.

Step eight. Install and sew into place the custom DSS molded rubber trim for the cam strap openings

Step nine. Sew the wobble stopper in place.

Step ten. Fish the T nuts and sealing grommets into place

Step eleven Install and properly torque the fittings

Step twelve connect the corrugated hose

Step thirteen install the OPV

Step fourteen inflate and test.

Wow seems very involved. I had no idea that your wings were so poorly designed that they needed so much work to change a bladder. On wings with a zipper it is much easier to change the bladder.

Ya, no doubt just about anyone you might encounter on any random street corner should be able to to do this correctly on their first try, and would *Never* claim we sent them a bad bladder (and of course refuse to return the damaged goods for us to inspect like you did.)

And of course doing the above repair is a simple matter, just about anyone with a sewing awl and the tail gate to work on could do it. No special tools or skills needed........


First. you never sent me a bladder. I sent the wing to you for repair and you sent back a wing that did not hold air. I am not an expert on wings that is why I sent the wing to you for repair. The bladder may have been defective or it may have been assembled incorrectly. It could have been damaged in shipment because the wing was crumpled up in a box with the other items I ordered. Second, you never asked for the wing to be returned. You asked me to diagnose the problem myself and threatened if I sent it back they could be substantial charges for repair. Before I sent the wing, the person I talked to said they wing would be disassembled and I would be called and told what is wrong with the wing and the cost. I called a week after DSS received the wing and asked about the repair and told it was done it needed a new bladder and you were waiting for me to call, which was strange because that information along with the emails were included in the box when I sent it. I tested the wing immediately when it arrived and contacted you via email. I never dove the wing or disassembled it prior to contacting you. I was not trying to scam you, and I don't think the OP is either.


Bottom line is quite simple, I'd hoped that my move would be accomplished more promptly and the down time would be short. But that was before an upstream neighbor flooded our construction project by mishandling his irrigation trenches and the local utility radically changed their requirements and time frame to run primary power to our new building.

It always seems you blame others for your problems. The OP has the nerve to want his wing fixed even though on many of an occasion you said that it would be fixed. I intentionally damaged my wing so I can smear you online. You really should seek professional help.


No doubt you would have foreseen all these problems and invested in a mobile repair facility to insure there were no *gasp* victims of DSS. (you know divers that might have to wait for a repair)

Given that near instant repairs are the *absolute* norm in the scuba business creating victims (you know guys with out of warranty gear that need repairs) is clearly immoral and unforgivable......

Is it the norm in the scuba business that it takes 6 months or more for a repair? I don't think so.


The good news (for me anyway) is your campaign to smear DSS will have zero impact on me, or my income or my future. What will you do to fill all the time you devoted to smearing DSS?

Are you closing DSS ?
 

tomfcrist

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I had no idea that your wings were so poorly designed that they needed so much work to change a bladder


Wow. You are a class act.
 

ams511

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I am sure the victim relied on it because who would purchase a non-repairable wing. The victim has suffered monetary damages because he spent $460 dollars and has a product that does not work. I see all the elements being present.

Victim? Really? Let's examine this ridiculous claim.

The er, ah, "Victim" purchased his gear over a year ago (when I expected the move to be much smoother)

Said "Victim" now needs post warranty service work. (Newsflash, I have zero "obligation" to perform this work, now or ever)

Said "Victim" may have to wait a bit (as is very common in the scuba industry) to get such work accomplished, oh the humanity....


That you elected to use the word "victim" simply confirms your poorly concealed animus for all things DSS.

Tobin

On may occasions on SB you have said you will repair the wing you sell for a reasonable fee so people would buy your wing. The repairs were never required to be made during the warranty period. Now, you are saying that you are under no obligation to repair the wings. This is a total about face. Very few people would purchase a sealed wing if they new it would not be repaired.

I know there are horror stories about service in every industry. Why do you want to be one of them?
 

cool_hardware52

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On may occasions on SB you have said you will repair the wing you sell for a reasonable fee so people would buy your wing.

It has been our long standing policy to execute repairs promptly and at nominal cost, and that is exactly what we have done for many years.

We are not currently able to do so. I sorry this is such a complex concept for you to grasp.

I'll also add that I have absolutely no obligation to provide any services to anyone. Failing to do so might impact my future business, but it does not require me to act. I can still refuse anyone I choose.

Am I closing DSS? It could happen, it could happen to any small business anytime. I certainly have no obligation to disclose this to you or anyone else.

Your wing? Yes we did test it. You are the one that claimed it leaked post repair, but always refused to allow us to examine it.

All we have is the claim of a self professed DIY'er, who hides behind an avatar, that a factory repair leaked. All the hallmarks of a smear.

Tobin
 

Bubblesong

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... an upstream neighbor flooded our construction project by mishandling his irrigation trenches and the local utility radically changed their requirements and time frame to run primary power to our new building....
Tobin

Any Pictures of this modern day flood? Not that I’m doubting you, but i do enjoy a bit of Construction Carnage. Plus you may need them for collecting on Destructive Deluge Damages. If you’re feeling like sharing, I’d also love to hear the recap of your conversation with your future neighbor, whom I do hope was quite reasonable and did not blame you for hitting an underground spring, disturbing ancient water spirits, and/or digging up his water pipes, as an excuse to avoid his moral and monetary obligations.
 

cool_hardware52

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I know there are horror stories about service in every industry. Why do you want to be one of them?

This is rich coming from a guy who has never missed a chance to repeat the lie that we failed to test your wing. You've made it a near 2nd career to repeat your (totally one sided and unverified) "horror story" about DSS every chance you get.

Shameless, totally shameless.

Tobin
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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