Drowning at Lake Rawlings

[DA Aquamaster]

Don't over react. Its not a "turn it into a DIR thing". It is just recognition that most technical divers, DIR or otherwise, at one piont or another in their careers consider that diving with a buddy you are not familiar with in some environments can be decidedly unsafe and a few of those divers generalize that to diving anywhere with any buddy they are not familiar with or, heaven forbid, a newly minted OW diver, is potentially hazardous.

From the new OW diver perspective, walking up to any diver for assitance can be intimidating, walking up to one in a dry suit, doubles, cannister light, and maybe even a stage bottle is even more so. And in my experience, most new OW divers ask two or three times if it is really ok after you offer to buddy with them since they perceive a bigger difference than rally exists.

The point is that technical diving has added yet another barrier than may separate divers and potentially reduce the number of potential buddies a new diver could find at the local dive spot.

 

[bcleveland]

I know it can get old to mentor new divers, especially after you reach a point where you feel you have "paid your dues", but you have to ask yourself if you don't who will? The DIR/tech diver tendency to never dive with a buddy you can't trust has I think made it even harder for new divers to find potetnial buddies with experience.

Or the opposite of "paid your dues". I'm still a relatively new diver and where I'm comfortable diving with my family (grow your own dive buddies), I'd be hesitant trying to mentor someone else. Yes, I'm OW certified and have the basic skills down pretty well. I would help out someone fiddling with an unfamiliar rental reg, tightening a tank strap, or any underwater emergency, but I personally wouldn't be comfortable doing any 'real' mentoring yet.

I guess i feel it's part of don't dive past your training - don't offer up advice past your experience. Maybe after another 50 dives....

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with that too. The problem only occurs if divers go directly from one to the other without ever taking any time to mentor new divers.

 

[wopsushi]

I KNEW THERE WAS A REASON I LOVE DIVING WITH YOU.... NOW THATS OLD SCHOOL........LOL

Amaxey - Wow 50 -99 dives and you are an expert on the industry and instruction...I'm impressed. My OW class took 4 weeks. You had a class that was a bootcamp and it didn't sound good at all. Shop around for your AO class. To clarify a few things:

1) diving in your limits and comfort zone means just that. If you don't feel comfortable or you think a dive is out of your league then don't dive.... This is how divers get hurt.

2) "On a plane to Oqhu and dove 110ftburned through my air and had to share air with the DM" - What can I say other than STUPID IDEA! I hope you read your book and regardless of the training agency, 60 ft is your limit as an Open water diver. Can't say that Ranger Rick is going to come riding up with the scuba police and bust you, but you should know better. 110 ft is an advanced dive at a minimum. Tell me... you planning on doing the Doria next month too?

The lady that died was practicing drills with her fiance' in approx 22 ft of water, and things went bad. Well the final word is not out on the investigation so DON'T speculate and talk about who what when where and how. when you were not there Yup, you stuck your foot down your throat to the knee newbie. and maybe you can use a few more dives at Rawlings too.

BTW, the DM on your Oahu trip did his or her job well, they got you home. You had to share air...hmmm translation, you ran out of air! Good job at being unprepared!

Hope this reply stings a little, you deserve it, you are way off base on this. Get somemore experience before you rip into a situation blindly.:no

 

[amaxey]

You might want to slow down and re-read the post.

Unless I'm seriously misreading it, amaxey just used the example of his own inadequate (as he now recognizes) training and risky (as he now recognizes) first dive to illustrate the point that its pretty easy to get in over your head when you walk into a dive shop and have no idea what the norms and expectations are.

I knew once I hit the submit button that somebody would burn me down over this post. Thanks NancyLynn for trying to shed some light on what I meant.

JimmyC, my friend, I was not bragging about my diving knowledge. I was merely using my example to illustrate my point. I will probably never dive the Andrea Doria, but on my first dive after my C-card, if an instructor told me the superstructure was in 75 feet of water and it would be okay for me to dive it with him....I may not have known that I shouldn't make the dive. I would not have known the water was cold and the current was swift. When you're new, you don't know stuff. I don't know any better way to put it.....sadly the seasoned professionals such as yourself lose sight of that. Don't you see students that think they can do anything now that they have that C-Card in their wallet? If you don't venture outside the confines of the training materials, you may not make that point to them that they aren't ready to go diving on their own yet. Passing the tests required to get a C-Card doesn't truly address the readiness issue.

I didn't analyze the accident at lake rawlings or give an expert opinion. I am the last person qualified to offer an answer as to what happened. God bless them and their families. I can't begin to understand how tragic this could be for her fiance and family. And you know what, God bless the people who searched for and recovered her. I know what that is like, it is very personal for them and will be with them forever. I wouldn't disrespect anyone involved by casually offering up a theory for what happened.

What I wanted from my post was for people not to criticize them for going out and diving together despite their experience level. It would be easy to say they shouldn't have been diving together if they were so new at it. I used my training and first dive as an example of getting in over your head without really knowing you were doing it. You can't dive within your limits until you know your limits, and "your limits" can't really be defined by numbers, it is only by experience. Our training gives numerical limits like depth and current, but only experience and "baby steps" gives us a clearer picture of our limits. Temperature, viz, equipment configuration, sea state, malfunctions, emotional state, and others are factors that make up our limits and we have to explore them to see where we fit.

Another purpose of my post was to point out that new divers may not even know that they aren't ready to dive together and experienced divers should be on the lookout for this. Had I been in a situation with a diver of my same skill level when I got my new C-Card, it could have ended up in catastrophy very easily. Even though I *THOUGHT* I was prepared and ready, and even though I was cautious and thorough.....I was nowhere near ready to dive with someone like myself. I had no idea that I wasn't even ready for an "easy" dive. Given the opportunity, I would have done that in a minute though.

This fact may be painfully obvious to everyone else except the newbies who are about to go in over their heads. Newbies don't always take advice very well, but they usually jump at the opportunity to dive with someone more experienced.

My story about my experience was not a discussion about what is smart or what is safe, it's about what people get away with, often without even knowing it's unsafe. JimmyC, your profile says you're an instructor....does that mean that a brand new diver shouldn't believe you if you say it's okay to accompany you on a dive outside one of their limits? Of course YOU would never do that, but some instructors say "hey....it's okay...you'll be with an instructor". Nothing in my training EVER said "Don't trust a certified XYZ Instructor".....it was really the opposite. A new diver can follow the rules and/or the advice of a dive professional and still get into trouble without sensing danger.

I can't do my first dives over, I can only advise other divers to be more careful by sharing my story.

Amaxey - Wow 50 -99 dives and you are an expert on the industry and instruction...I'm impressed.

JimmyC, you shouldn't be impressed. Really. I am not an expert. I have a little knowledge on what it's like to have a rocky start to your dive training. I only speak from the perspective of a person who knew nothing about diving, didn't even know a diver, and got into this sport in a hurry. My training hammered home the point that myself and a buddy could go diving safely and easily once I had my C-Card. Over and over I saw images of two people, wading into the water or rolling off a boat together, just like I was going to be once I passed my test. As I found out on my first dive.....I was NOT prepared. There is no substitute for logging dives with people more experienced than yourself.

Today's training materials are littered with marketing fluff, and they make the sport look easy and safe. Within the rules of the agency(s), it is possible to get a C-Card and not be prepared to dive with a buddy of the same experience level. Period. I really don't think that point can be argued. Within the "spirit" of the rules, yes, everyone should be prepared. But it doesn't always happen that way.

I'm sure we all can think of two certified divers who should NEVER be diving together, but those two may not know they shouldn't dive together. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. That was my point.

~Al

 

[JayJudge]

I was saddened to hear of the accident. Every time we engage in diving, there are certain 'what-if's'. As a newly cetified diver, the skills to deal with those, may or may not be available. As an experienced diver, the same holds true. I have seen divers in the NE that, when put into (as my friend puts it- my favorite) deep, dark, cold, and dangerous water, they run near the point of panic. Even though they had hundreds of dives, they had never left the caves and coast of Florida. They were unaware of the skills they were missing. Now, to say that this accident happened because...... is foolish. It happened for the reasons that happened, not because this training agency is better than that one, etc. And to all those that would post its because they were new- ummm- I have seen a few posting on rebreather guys that failed to come back, tech divers that get bent, and at least one that I know of that did everything on schedule, got on the boat, said "that was the best dive of my life", and died. Now, when we see newer divers on the boat, we ask some of the more experienced to 'keep an eye' on them. Mostly, this means the experienced diver gets them back to the line, and waves bye to them. Few, if any, mind doing that, in fact a lot enjoy as the new divers get to see a lot more than if they were obsessed with the dive physics. They are reminded to check gauges, timers, etc. This has even led to tips for me (always a plus, but never expected). Chances are, I have been on the wreck before, or, in the lake, etc. When I first started, I was lucky. Some of the guys from our LDS went on the first trip with my buddy and I. They were all DM's, some had been diving since BEFORE C-cards, most were cave divers, deco divers, wreck divers, and ice divers. I saw my first set of doubles. I met someone who had taken a serious ride in the chamber, after trying to save his buddy. Today, unfortunately, the LDS and I don't get along. (I started 'running trips') However, some of our group does still help the shop, and we still help their newer divers. This hobby/activity/sport is one of building friends, not setting world records. Maybe if a more experienced diver was there, it would have been better, maybe it would have been worse. But, if you see someone having problems, or looking terrified, talk to them. Maybe help them, if you can, safely. I hate sounding like a public service message, but- we're all in this together. Lets have safe, fun dives, and help others to do the same. And to those that need telling- this does not mean espouse your (un?) limited wisdom about there being only one way to dive. You know who you are.
-J

 

[tfsails]

I went from nothing to AOW in two weeks--15 dives, in the Caribbean, on a business trip. After I got home, I wondered just how good a dive education I got, given the rapidity at which I reached "advanced" level. At this point I must say that I "taught" myself to dive at age 21 (young, dumb, and bulletproof...) and made a dive off Key Largo, but couldn't afford to learn to dive the right way until 2000 when I was 51.

I discovered that while a lot of things come to me intuitively, a huge number of dive things did not come to me intuitively and I felt sorta stupid about that. This realization led me to seek more training. I completed Nitrox, Rescue, and DM/AI courses, so now I am considered a dive professional. I also learned that I got a pretty good dive education in that fortnight in the Caribbean and somehow got through my bull head lots and lots of diving knowledge that I think every diver should know.

Now for a war story: One day, on an outing at Rawlings with my local dive club, I found myself buddying with two divers who hadn't made a dive in ten months. At this time I was 80% through the DM/AI course. We made it to the blue bus, and I looked around and had trouble finding one of the other two divers. I thought I saw him, swam over to him, and discovered that this diver wasn't my buddy. The third diver and I surfaced, where we found the lost diver. He was having trouble with his buoancy, either hitting the bottom or the surface. At this time, the third diver showed signs of being out of breath and some distress. After talking to him (and the lost buddy), I decided that a surface swim back to the dock was in order. During the swim, I was talking faster than an auctioneer keeping both calm. Their diving together could have become a statistic had a much more experienced diver not been there to interrupt the chain of minor events going wrong. I should have noticed the second diver having buoyancy trouble during the swim; I was remiss in not paying closer attention to him. Lesson learned for me!

After we got back, we analyzed what happened, and it was only then that I discovered these guys were two newly-minted divers who had made five total dives nine months ago and had not been in the water since. We practiced buoyancy skills at the end of the dock for a while, then got out when we made an air check and one guy had burned through 2000 psi swimming to the bus.

I made the decision that I would buddy up with each of these divers, but only one at a time. I didn't feel like I could give the attention required to each diver if both were with me at the same time. We made another dive, but one had equalization problems. The other made it out to the blue bus again, was doing much better, but when we surfaced to discuss our next move he was huffing and puffing again. At this time I discovered that his BC harness was adjusted so tight he could barely breathe. We surface-swam back in.

The point here is that brand-new divers have NO experience level upon which to draw other than their training to date. I would highly recommend that divers continue their training up through at least the Rescue Diver level if for no other reason than it'll give them much more confidence in their own diving. It was my advanced training that made me more confidant and competent as a diver. I may have learned it eventually by trial and error (hopefully not fatal), but I learned it much faster by getting the training, joining the dive club, and just hanging out at dive shops.

I advise new divers today to take baby steps when they go diving. I also advise them to always leave themselves a way out of any situation they may find themselves in while diving. I advise them to get more experience in the relatively confined waters of the quarry before they hit a North Carolina wreck; I advise them to seek out various dive buddies and learn from them, both what and what not to do. I also advise them to never lose sight that this is an extreme sport and it can kill you if you're not careful. I then advise them to go out, have fun, and be prepared to become addicted to diving.

 

[amaxey]

A two week business trip to Curacao?
With enough time to get your OW and AOW done?
I'm definitely in the wrong business.

I agree with you about getting more training and more dives before heading off to NC. I have a story about that too, but won't share it. There is an unwritten SCUBA rule that you can't tell on yourself when you screw up, you can only talk bad about others. Let's just say I have since learned to "find my limits without pushing them". Boy I wish I could stop someone from making the mistakes I made on my first NC trip!

North Carolina may be close to where we live, but it's no "baby step". Your advice is good, I wish I had gotten some like it about 4 or 5 years ago.

 

[UnderSeaBumbleBee]

I have a story about that too, but won't share it. There is an unwritten SCUBA rule that you can't tell on yourself when you screw up, you can only talk bad about others.

Where did you get that idea? That is why there is a near miss and lessons learned forum. Here is the linky dink http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/near-misses-lessons-learned/

 

[fisherdvm]

I saw it yesterday at Lake Rawlings, DA Aquamaster. I saw an Instructor from Maryland did OW Training Dives 1, 2 and 3 with his OW student in less than 60 minutes. I would accept 3 dives in one day, but this Instructor cranked-out 3 dives in an hour. I couldn't believe it.

Of course, the scenario might have been exactly as you described. But at the same time, it is also possible that the instructor wanted to get the skill slate for dives 1, 2 and 3 done in day 1, so he can focus more on other aspect of diving, buoyancy, etc. on the true remaining dives 2, 3, and 4....

Probably not the case, but if you are 1 one 1, it is certainly feasible to wham, bam, get them all out of the way in 1 dive. And save the remaining 3 dives to focus on ascend, descend, navigation, and buoyancy. You'd have to be careful what you overhear, because things might not always be as it seems.

One instructor with 3 divers, would need the full 2 or 3 dives to complete the skills. But one instructor with 1 diver should be able to whip through the skills in 1 dive.... Then save the rest for later.

60 minutes divided into 2 twenty minute dives, with a 20 minute surface interval.... That is well within the agency standards for most agencies.